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This photo reflects some of the things that put me off ordering a Sei: Although the neck is longer than 34" and the bridge is replaced by longer tuners, the body is the same as normal flamboyants. This means that a) the pickups are closer to the bridge than normal b) the first position will be tougher to reach and c) IMO the neck looks "cut out" from the body.
Thinking beyond this, I think it's great that Martin has decided to offer fanned frets as an option, but I don't feel that there has been any development stage in his fanned fret basses - there can't be, as this is the first one (except for pino's guitar/bass AFAIK). I don't think this is acceptable at this price point. I mean, Sheldon Dingwall has the five string SuperJ almost ready for a while now, but he won't sell it until he's 100% happy with it... that's the kind of passion and commitment I want to see in quality (and expensive) basses.
Not saying that Seis aren't quality basses, of course they are, and this one is no exception, I'm sure it's gonna turn out great, but I expect more consideration of the unique elements of fanned frets design and a little R&D before a model goes to the "production line". As I said earlier, I'd feel like a lab mouse if I had ordered the second novax flamboyant ever, and as much as I love Martin's craftmanship and the flamboyant shape, I'm eventually glad I didn't.
This is definitely gonna be a nice bass, but if it was mine I would think that this is an expensive experiment that could have gone better. Of course, it could fit you perfectly as it is (and you probably wanted it this way) so I'm only speaking from my point of view.
Thinking beyond this, I think it's great that Martin has decided to offer fanned frets as an option, but I don't feel that there has been any development stage in his fanned fret basses - there can't be, as this is the first one (except for pino's guitar/bass AFAIK). I don't think this is acceptable at this price point. I mean, Sheldon Dingwall has the five string SuperJ almost ready for a while now, but he won't sell it until he's 100% happy with it... that's the kind of passion and commitment I want to see in quality (and expensive) basses.
Not saying that Seis aren't quality basses, of course they are, and this one is no exception, I'm sure it's gonna turn out great, but I expect more consideration of the unique elements of fanned frets design and a little R&D before a model goes to the "production line". As I said earlier, I'd feel like a lab mouse if I had ordered the second novax flamboyant ever, and as much as I love Martin's craftmanship and the flamboyant shape, I'm eventually glad I didn't.
This is definitely gonna be a nice bass, but if it was mine I would think that this is an expensive experiment that could have gone better. Of course, it could fit you perfectly as it is (and you probably wanted it this way) so I'm only speaking from my point of view.
Good evening:
By way of a reply to the last post, let me simply state that those (and other) aesthetic and potential performance-related issues did not go unnoticed by me when they surfaced many months ago, and I will say only that there were definately certain "issues" associated with the design and build of this bass. For the moment, I am not going to say anything good or bad about how she looks, other than to state that her construction looks incredible, all that I had hoped for with this combination of woods, and I truly hope she performs per my design requirements.
I will keep you all posted as I get closer to the end of the road.
All the best to all of you, and Happy Holidaze, too!
/S/
Richard Collins a/k/a "notrt"
By way of a reply to the last post, let me simply state that those (and other) aesthetic and potential performance-related issues did not go unnoticed by me when they surfaced many months ago, and I will say only that there were definately certain "issues" associated with the design and build of this bass. For the moment, I am not going to say anything good or bad about how she looks, other than to state that her construction looks incredible, all that I had hoped for with this combination of woods, and I truly hope she performs per my design requirements.
I will keep you all posted as I get closer to the end of the road.
All the best to all of you, and Happy Holidaze, too!
/S/
Richard Collins a/k/a "notrt"
Honestly, I think it will be fine. Maybe it could be better is some aspects, but I don't think you'll notice much when you get it in your hands. And the upper horn thankfully is already long enough, so the first position shouldn't be too far out.
BTW, one more thing I noticed, looking at the photo... this can't be the correct placement of the tuners, unless the saddles in these things can move a lot... I'm not familiar with this kind of tuners so I don't know. But if the saddles don't move too much, the lower tuners should be placed further into the body to work with the fanned frets. As placed now, they are parallel to the last fret. If this is correct, I wonder whether the bridge pickup will be able to be placed even at that place or if the tuners will get in the way...
BTW, one more thing I noticed, looking at the photo... this can't be the correct placement of the tuners, unless the saddles in these things can move a lot... I'm not familiar with this kind of tuners so I don't know. But if the saddles don't move too much, the lower tuners should be placed further into the body to work with the fanned frets. As placed now, they are parallel to the last fret. If this is correct, I wonder whether the bridge pickup will be able to be placed even at that place or if the tuners will get in the way...
As far as I can see the pickups and individual bridges/tuners have been placed on the bass for the purpose of the photo. Of course they will be placed properly when it comes time to fit them.
Matthew
Matthew
OK, the more I've read the last couple of postings, the more I feel I have to answer the questions posed....
This is frankly preposterous. I'm sure that something made for Mr.Pallidino would have to be researched. To suggest that a builder, and I mean any builder, would just sling a fanned fret design together haphazardly to make a few quid is ridiculous.
....and too suggest that Martin & John do not have passion & commitment is just vulgar. All luthiers worth their salt have a love of creating and building their designs.
Also, this bass is not finished !! Do we even know from the photo that the bridge/tuner units or the pickups are even fixed in their final positions ??
For an example, last time I was down looking at my bass, Martin and I discussed the pickup position. Martin measured this out carefully and suggested that x was the best distance. With someone whose attention to detail is so well known, I have absolutely no doubt that when that bass is finished everything will be measured and in exactly the right place.
I strongly feel that some of your comments are truly without foundation and should be retracted.
I also feel bad for RC. He has these great, new pics of his bass only to have them flamed.....
This is frankly preposterous. I'm sure that something made for Mr.Pallidino would have to be researched. To suggest that a builder, and I mean any builder, would just sling a fanned fret design together haphazardly to make a few quid is ridiculous.
....and too suggest that Martin & John do not have passion & commitment is just vulgar. All luthiers worth their salt have a love of creating and building their designs.
Also, this bass is not finished !! Do we even know from the photo that the bridge/tuner units or the pickups are even fixed in their final positions ??
For an example, last time I was down looking at my bass, Martin and I discussed the pickup position. Martin measured this out carefully and suggested that x was the best distance. With someone whose attention to detail is so well known, I have absolutely no doubt that when that bass is finished everything will be measured and in exactly the right place.
I strongly feel that some of your comments are truly without foundation and should be retracted.
I also feel bad for RC. He has these great, new pics of his bass only to have them flamed.....
Hey all - wow, loads of reading to catch up on here!!!
Notrt - I think it's looking seriously cool, got a modern vibe to it and that facing wood is great. Can't be too long now. The whole fanned fret thing isn't my thing (I think I'm a bit of a traditionalist at heart) but it seems to work really well with the Flam shape. Looking forward to reading your feedback when you get your paws on it.
Not sure DragonLord is deserving of some of the grief he is getting, he is only putting across the reasons why he is backing away from a Sei - nothing wrong with that. The fact that the fanned fret isn't (in his opinion) a proven Sei design is off-putting to him. Personally it wouldn't be an issue for me, I just know Martin delivers but it's not my money or risk - it's all cool.
For me I thought long and hard about the custom route. I always thought it was an expensive, time-consuming and risky business. However, I tried so many off the shelf basses and there was always something not right - something I would always have to compromise on.
I am crystal clear in my requirements, I know EXACTLY what I want from my basses. Martin was able to get my ideas out of me through our talks. He always instilled complete confidence in being able to deliver and by Christ he has.
If you know exactly what your after and find a luthier who listens to you yet imparts their expertise (and your prepared to listen to that expertise!) it's not such a risk
Notrt - I think it's looking seriously cool, got a modern vibe to it and that facing wood is great. Can't be too long now. The whole fanned fret thing isn't my thing (I think I'm a bit of a traditionalist at heart) but it seems to work really well with the Flam shape. Looking forward to reading your feedback when you get your paws on it.
Not sure DragonLord is deserving of some of the grief he is getting, he is only putting across the reasons why he is backing away from a Sei - nothing wrong with that. The fact that the fanned fret isn't (in his opinion) a proven Sei design is off-putting to him. Personally it wouldn't be an issue for me, I just know Martin delivers but it's not my money or risk - it's all cool.
For me I thought long and hard about the custom route. I always thought it was an expensive, time-consuming and risky business. However, I tried so many off the shelf basses and there was always something not right - something I would always have to compromise on.
I am crystal clear in my requirements, I know EXACTLY what I want from my basses. Martin was able to get my ideas out of me through our talks. He always instilled complete confidence in being able to deliver and by Christ he has.
If you know exactly what your after and find a luthier who listens to you yet imparts their expertise (and your prepared to listen to that expertise!) it's not such a risk
OK. But the fact is that I was there, I discussed it and I almost gave one year worth of savings for such a bass, so I know what I'm talking about. Martin uses the same templates that he uses on his normal Flamboyants. AFAIK, there is absolutely no difference except for the fanned frets. If you think that this is ridiculous, you said it man, not me.
Of course. But my comments are not based on speculation, they are based on the photo. Everyone can see that, with this body length and tuners, the pickup position seen in dingwalls for example is just not possible. Not saying that this is necessarily a bad thing. Of course, it makes me wonder because Martin said he could use the dingwall pickup position on mine... I wonder how he would do it, as some of the neck pickup would probably have to float in the air. I also wonder how would they fit soapbars in there.
It seems strange to me that even notrt says that he has also noticed the issues that I wrote about, and yet you think that I "flamed" the photos... the only flaming attempt I can see is yours, as everything I wrote was logical and explained. I get the impression that you feel you must defend the luthier of your choice... when you really don't. I've already said that I like many many of the things that Martin does, or else I wouldn't be THIS close to ordering one a couple of weeks ago. If you expect me to say that everything he touches turns to gold, I'm sorry but I can't do this. I come honest, as I am honest when I say that I don't think that these issues will really matter to notrt once he receives the bass.
We measured it with Martin when I was there. The tuner for the B string seems in place, which would mean that, as we go down to thinner strings, the tuners will have to be placed more towards the neck, except (as I already said) if the saddles can move A LOT back and forth in these tuners. It's not something I imagine, it's the fanned frets design. The tuners as placed in the photo are parallel to the last fret, they should be more fanned in the end, which would leave even less body space for the pickups between the saddles and the start of the neck. That's all I said.
OK, so we have a difference of opinion...and there's nothing wrong with this !!
During my post, I reiterated that I was speaking about any builder. Your inference that there is no research or passion would be incorrect about any luthier 'worth his salt'.
It's not a case of defending Martin & John either. If I'd seen similar comments referring to Sadowsky, Fodera and even Dingwall I would react in the same way. It must be difficult enough for builders to establish themselves in a niche marketplace, without then being accused that they don't care about their product.
As we all know fanned frets are relatively new to the bass marketplace and have yet to be taken on by the major manufacturers. Sheldon Dingwall embraced the idea from it's beginnings (and continued to do so despite the awful fire in 1996) and so has a head-start on those luthiers who are now being asked for this to be included on their instruments. How can you argue with a bass whose B-string has been described as sounding like "the voice of God" (everyone wants that !!).
It goes without saying that the Dingwall company designed their instruments to try to take advantage of Ralph Novak's design. Other luthiers (and I'm not just talking Sei here) are incorporating it into existing basses. You are in the camp which thinks that a bass line should be specifically designed to cope with fanned frets, which is a perfectly acceptable line to take. However, it is your suggestion that somehow this particular bass is slapdash which I take acception to (and again, I would take acception to that inference regardless of the luthier, taking his previous work into account of course....)
At the end of the day it's RC's bass. Only he can decide whether it's a success or not as it's his vision which started the build. Originally, I asked for my bass to have fanned frets, but as I had not played a fanned fretted bass it didn't seem logical for me to try this out.
I still feel for RC and respect his silence at this point regarding his bass. I bet he can't wait to have the finished article and to see if it comes close to his design requirements. As with any custom order, I wish nothing but a splendid result (I post regularly on the custom bass support group thread).
Whilst I respect your knowledge and research of the fanned fret subject, and your decision not go with a Sei (or Fodera, Sadowsky et al) I still feel that your statements regarding research & passion etc were out of line.
During my post, I reiterated that I was speaking about any builder. Your inference that there is no research or passion would be incorrect about any luthier 'worth his salt'.
It's not a case of defending Martin & John either. If I'd seen similar comments referring to Sadowsky, Fodera and even Dingwall I would react in the same way. It must be difficult enough for builders to establish themselves in a niche marketplace, without then being accused that they don't care about their product.
As we all know fanned frets are relatively new to the bass marketplace and have yet to be taken on by the major manufacturers. Sheldon Dingwall embraced the idea from it's beginnings (and continued to do so despite the awful fire in 1996) and so has a head-start on those luthiers who are now being asked for this to be included on their instruments. How can you argue with a bass whose B-string has been described as sounding like "the voice of God" (everyone wants that !!).
It goes without saying that the Dingwall company designed their instruments to try to take advantage of Ralph Novak's design. Other luthiers (and I'm not just talking Sei here) are incorporating it into existing basses. You are in the camp which thinks that a bass line should be specifically designed to cope with fanned frets, which is a perfectly acceptable line to take. However, it is your suggestion that somehow this particular bass is slapdash which I take acception to (and again, I would take acception to that inference regardless of the luthier, taking his previous work into account of course....)
At the end of the day it's RC's bass. Only he can decide whether it's a success or not as it's his vision which started the build. Originally, I asked for my bass to have fanned frets, but as I had not played a fanned fretted bass it didn't seem logical for me to try this out.
I still feel for RC and respect his silence at this point regarding his bass. I bet he can't wait to have the finished article and to see if it comes close to his design requirements. As with any custom order, I wish nothing but a splendid result (I post regularly on the custom bass support group thread).
Whilst I respect your knowledge and research of the fanned fret subject, and your decision not go with a Sei (or Fodera, Sadowsky et al) I still feel that your statements regarding research & passion etc were out of line.
Agree with some of the above, disagree with some.
What are the luthiers that put a fanned fret neck in their existing models? I know LeCompte has made a new model for this. Skjold is doing one for a friend, but I think he won't be offering it as an option (it was one-off) so it doesn't count. And anyway, when going with a bridge these issues do not appear at this grade, a headless is a different thing because of the big tuners.
My point is this: If the flamboyant is designed so that the upper horn ends at the 12th fret for better balance and first position reaching (which I am a fan of) on 34" basses, why not use the same proportions in a 37" bass? Why should the upper horn be at the 14th-15th fret and why should all of the extra length stick out at the end of the neck, instead of being harmonically distributed with a longer horn? I'm not talking about a new design here, just keeping the proportions.
To me it is unacceptable to see that the pickup placement will have to be decided to be closer to the bridge and the pickups closer to each other than normal basses because the luthier couldn't bother to make a different template for such a different instrument. And as you say that you would defend any luthier for this, let me tell you that I would say that this is unacceptable for any luthier, especially at this price point. Pickup placement is a vital part of the sound. Do you know what would happen if I had ordered one? I would have ordered it with the dingwall pickup position, and I would have ended up with the pickup position you see in the photo above.
And about "it's RC's bass and he will decide", of course! But that doesn't mean you can't say "it's great", or that I can't say "it's nice but I don't like this and this and this". We're discussing. When I see a great thing I say it (and I have done it for Sei many times), so when I see something wrong, IMHO of course, I think I should also say it.
What are the luthiers that put a fanned fret neck in their existing models? I know LeCompte has made a new model for this. Skjold is doing one for a friend, but I think he won't be offering it as an option (it was one-off) so it doesn't count. And anyway, when going with a bridge these issues do not appear at this grade, a headless is a different thing because of the big tuners.
My point is this: If the flamboyant is designed so that the upper horn ends at the 12th fret for better balance and first position reaching (which I am a fan of) on 34" basses, why not use the same proportions in a 37" bass? Why should the upper horn be at the 14th-15th fret and why should all of the extra length stick out at the end of the neck, instead of being harmonically distributed with a longer horn? I'm not talking about a new design here, just keeping the proportions.
To me it is unacceptable to see that the pickup placement will have to be decided to be closer to the bridge and the pickups closer to each other than normal basses because the luthier couldn't bother to make a different template for such a different instrument. And as you say that you would defend any luthier for this, let me tell you that I would say that this is unacceptable for any luthier, especially at this price point. Pickup placement is a vital part of the sound. Do you know what would happen if I had ordered one? I would have ordered it with the dingwall pickup position, and I would have ended up with the pickup position you see in the photo above.
And about "it's RC's bass and he will decide", of course! But that doesn't mean you can't say "it's great", or that I can't say "it's nice but I don't like this and this and this". We're discussing. When I see a great thing I say it (and I have done it for Sei many times), so when I see something wrong, IMHO of course, I think I should also say it.
Richard, I REALLY like your new bass, both the beautiful woods used and its stunning contemporary look. I have seen all sorts of lovely SEIs whilst visiting The Gallery over the last few months, but yours is the one that particular fired my imagination and stuck in my memory. I understand Dragonlords concerns, but I suspect he is right when he says that you will not notice when you have it in your hands
I sure wish it was coming to my hands!
Great to see it again, nearly finished and not long to go now!
We all need to remember that the custom made route is just that, made specifically to the customers requirements. Luthiers obviously have their own core tried and tested designs with various customer specified options offered, based on past experience and what sells. This all makes for the lovely rich variety of basses available, which surely is a good thing.
Martin is no different, having his own tried and tested designs and various customer options offered. He prefers to stick to these designs (due to their tried and tested nature) and I suspect this is what he has done with this bass (presumably after discussion with Richard). However, I know Martin is very open to potential modifications to these designs he is making me a modified offset flamboyant. Also, I have known Martin for 12+ years and know his unswerving professionalism and dedication mean it would never be a case that he couldnt be bothered to make a different template.
We also need to ensure we compare like with like. Dingwall clearly specialise is making fan fretted basses (core feature on all their designs), expecting to sell a number of Jazz 5s and therefore making it cost effective to do prototypes. I suspect Martins experience is that fan fretting is a rarely specified option rather than a core feature, making it neither time nor cost effective for him to do these prototypes. He will build it to the best of his ability like any other luthier would, but you had better buy a Dingwall if you really want that fan fret experience built into your bass.
Anyway, lets keep the good discussion going.
Happy Christmas to you all.
Great to see it again, nearly finished and not long to go now!
We all need to remember that the custom made route is just that, made specifically to the customers requirements. Luthiers obviously have their own core tried and tested designs with various customer specified options offered, based on past experience and what sells. This all makes for the lovely rich variety of basses available, which surely is a good thing.
Martin is no different, having his own tried and tested designs and various customer options offered. He prefers to stick to these designs (due to their tried and tested nature) and I suspect this is what he has done with this bass (presumably after discussion with Richard). However, I know Martin is very open to potential modifications to these designs he is making me a modified offset flamboyant. Also, I have known Martin for 12+ years and know his unswerving professionalism and dedication mean it would never be a case that he couldnt be bothered to make a different template.
We also need to ensure we compare like with like. Dingwall clearly specialise is making fan fretted basses (core feature on all their designs), expecting to sell a number of Jazz 5s and therefore making it cost effective to do prototypes. I suspect Martins experience is that fan fretting is a rarely specified option rather than a core feature, making it neither time nor cost effective for him to do these prototypes. He will build it to the best of his ability like any other luthier would, but you had better buy a Dingwall if you really want that fan fret experience built into your bass.
Anyway, lets keep the good discussion going.
Happy Christmas to you all.
Ben, I totally agree with your post. By the way, is your bass going to be multi-scale. I would say fanned fretted but there won't be any frets !!
Conklin have made ff (fanned fret) basses with seemingly (to me anyway !!) little change to the excellent Sidewinder body style. One question though Dragonlord, does it make a difference where the straight (non-fanned) fret is (5th or 7th fret) ?? I know that this can make some difference to the fanning but how ???
Maybe Richard could chime in here as to the discussions he had with Martin over the fanned frets and his expectations with the finished instrument ??
Conklin have made ff (fanned fret) basses with seemingly (to me anyway !!) little change to the excellent Sidewinder body style. One question though Dragonlord, does it make a difference where the straight (non-fanned) fret is (5th or 7th fret) ?? I know that this can make some difference to the fanning but how ???
Maybe Richard could chime in here as to the discussions he had with Martin over the fanned frets and his expectations with the finished instrument ??
About Conklin, I guess it's covered by what I said above, that a headed bass would probably be ok with the same template as you can take the saddle almost to the end of the body. A headless is IMO a different animal, as you have to make up for the longer scale and the saddle being further into the body because of the tuners. Anyway, I'm happy I made my points and we kept it civilized.
About your question; Imagine that you have a stable 37" (or whatever) B string and you move the 34" G string to the right or to the left. Imagine that the two strings are connected with the frets, as if the G is "hanging" by the frets from the B. If you start at the point where the straight fret is the 7th, you need to move the G string closer to the nut (relatively to the stable B) to make the straight fret move to the the same direction, for example to make the 5th fret be the straight one. This would result in the nut being more straight, and the bridge more fanned. I hope I'm describing it clear enough, english isn't my first language... That would probably make more sense if you play too much in the first position and you don't care about the positions over the 12th fret. Of course, if this is overdone (for example if you make the nut straight or any of the first few frets), I guess that there would be a problem with the bridge being too fanned... For example, when you played on the B string above the pickup, when you move to the G string in the first position you'd be much closer to the saddle... In the same way, if you make the straight fret the 12th or above, the bridge would be more straight but the first frets would be way too fanned. The 7th is a very good choice. If I had ordered it, I would probably have asked for the 6th to be the straight one, as I play mostly in the first positions.
The only disadvantage I can see in the fanned frets is that, if you play a lot next to the bridge, you'll have a hard time following the fanning... KJung tried a Dingwall and wasn't interested because of this. I play mostly on the neck pickup, so that's no problem for me, and I think that it just needs a change in technique, if you want to do it you can "teach" your fingers to follow the fanning, after all most players won't skip more that 2 or 3 strings most of the time so it's not that difficult.
Actually, I would suggest to anyone interested, as most of you are in London as I understand, to ask Martin when notrt's bass will be finished so you could go by and try it yourselves (if that's ok with notrt that is)... I doubt you'll find a Dingwall in the UK in the near future, unless you order it. It's not for everyone, but it's definitely worth a try.
Just to wish all who contribute to this thread a very merry Christmas !!
First the first time ever all is done before Christmas Eve, so I can stay in and play bass instead of running around the shops (well play bass and write some new patches on my ART Nightbass !!).
First the first time ever all is done before Christmas Eve, so I can stay in and play bass instead of running around the shops (well play bass and write some new patches on my ART Nightbass !!).
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