Self Taught: Yea or Nay

[BarfanyShart]

Self-taught with no other musical experience or education is someone who I will not hire. If for no other reason that I can't talk to them about music with any common terms or referents.

I was completely self-taught on bass. That in no way negates the years of hard-assed formal classical education I got for violin, nor the far more mellow schooling I received for drums and trombone. I got taught. Just not bass.

You know, bass guitar is such a new instrument, it might be the least important instrument to receive specific formal instruction on HOW to play it. But general music education, and the discipline involved in becoming in becoming an instrumentalist is necessary.

 

[megarat]

I don't hold a grudge against people are self-taught and have worked hard to be a good musician.

I do, however, hold a grudge against people who brag about being self-taught, as if being self-taught automatically makes them a savant, or that avoiding the educational system brands oneself as being a truly free-thinking and creative artist.

Please note that I harbor similar sentiments about people who boast about their formal training, so my prejudice isn't just one-sided.

Myself, while I take regular lessons on the electric bass and I've had one college course in music theory, I wouldn't regard myself as being formally trained, but I wish I was.

 

[Mannyinnewyork]

Self-taught with no other musical experience or education is someone who I will not hire. If for no other reason that I can't talk to them about music with any common terms or referents.

I was completely self-taught on bass. That in no way negates the years of hard-assed formal classical education I got for violin, nor the far more mellow schooling I received for drums and trombone. I got taught. Just not bass.

Self taught doesn’t mean ignorant. I learned about key structure, intervals, time signatures etc. I’m just not schooled. I think for most applications you’d be able to communicate with me on almost every level.

 

[AboutSweetSue]

I’m self-taught. But, I grew up with a recording studio in the house. I remember being 15 seeing people like Brent Mason and other Nashville musicians come and go. I’m sure that educated me quite a bit. Playing pool, hearing all these guys play was at the least inspirational.

 

[juggahnaught]

This is an interesting one. It kind of depends on what they play and what genre they play.

If I meet a jazz musician who is self-taught, I probably would expect good things, whereas someone who was "trained" - I'd expect good things, but I'd expect the musician to be different in his or her approach to music - possibly more on the theory and math side of things. (Except for drummers.)

If I meet a gospel or R&B musician who is self-taught, I expect great things, whereas someone who was "trained", I wouldn't necessarily know what to think.

If I meet someone who's into rock, punk, country, metal, etc. and they say they're self-taught, my gut instinct is not a good one - I generally expect loud, obnoxious, and unmusical (in regard to sound, not personality).

This usually doesn't apply to piano players, but it definitely applies to guitarists, bassists, drummers, and DEFINITELY singers.

I generally wait to see whether my initial instinct is correct or incorrect; you can't judge a person until you hear them play. That said, my experiences tend to drive my initial responses when it comes to musicians. I've simply learned to wait to see whether my preconceived notions are valid or not.

 

[Huw Phillips]

Would you rather a classically trained chef cook for you or a self taught chef ? In French there is an expression “ making love to flies “ splitting hairs etc seems to be a mute question to me as others have pointed out with access to internet and books.....

 

[okcrum]

The only question that needs to be answered (and not with words) is "Can you play?".

 

[BarfanyShart]

As someone with degrees in double bass performance and composition, who does not (and arguably never did) make a living in music, I think it's an incredible base of knowledge to enrich yourself with and very worth it. That said, at least a couple of guys I studied bass were really good bass guitar players and dropped out after the first year or two to play full time. I didn't get it at the time, but decades later I very clearly see that learning to play double bass and the history of western classical music would have been a waste of these guys' time. That's not to say these guys were "self taught," but they saw the limitations of formal music education, and they took what they took the amount they thought they needed.

 

[Kmonk]

I am completely self taught on bass, guitar, keys and harmonica. I've never had a lesson in my life. My business partner is formally trained on keys, trumpet and theory. He has degrees from Berklee and several other institutions. He is the former Chair of Professional Music at Berklee and recently moved into an Associate Dean position there. We met 20 years ago and since that time, he has used me for all his projects including live performance as well as composing and recording projects. We currently do some of the music for several well know tv shows on networks such as The History Channel, Discovery, Animal Planet, CNBC and others. He could easily work with anybody but he uses me for everything. He has told me many times that I have an excellent ear and a great sense of time. I consider it a huge compliment. Neither of us have a preference as to whether the musicians we work with are self taught or not. As long as they can play and are easy to deal with, we will work with them.

 

[Mikey F]

Everyone is taught by listening. Formerly or informaly.

 

[DavC]

for many people ... ' lessons ' will never make them a musical person ..!! sorry , ... but i've tried to teach several of these types of folks ... and i am/was quite flexible in my approach ..!

i have met people who really couldn't carry a tune in a bucket ..!!

 

[dbsfgyd1]

There are amazing players who are self taught, and there are awful ones. There are amazing players who are classically trained and there are awful ones. This is NOT the way to judge a musician! But before hearing a player, if you hear the words "self taught," in that instinctual gut-check part of yourself, do your expectations go up or down.

Definitely explain your choice if you want, but lets avoid the lists of names if at all possible. I doubt there is a player alive who would say "all self taught players are good/bad" or "all trained players are good/bad." The examples either way sort of prove jack, and I'm wondering what your gut tells you.

Regardless whether you are self taught or a product of lessons, you will not be a great bassist unless you have a through understanding of music, how it works, as well as the function of the bass. You need to be a musician first as otherwise you a just exercising the technique of playing notes, and that is about as entertaining as watching grass grow.

 

[DrayMiles]

I instantly think “Let’s see what happens...” or “Hmm...”

 

[AboutSweetSue]

I’ve met guys who were formally taught at places such as Berklee who were absolute crap. A formal education can’t dress up a lack of talent.

I think people would be absolutely shocked to see how many of these musicians in Nashville have zero training, and how many of their musical heroes never spent a day in the classroom.

Hard work and passion can go much further than your parents money.

But, with that being said, I have nothing against music education. I think it is more beneficial than not. But these comments about how guys who are self-taught creating a reaction of supposed crap within do nothing but point to ignorance about the reality of the situation.

 

[devnulljp]

Makes zero difference. I've played with schooled players and unschooled, so experience says 'give em a chance and see what they can do'
Sometimes they're good, sometimes they're great, sometimes they're not so hot. You'll never know til you hear them play.

 

[DeltaTango]

That's the kind of thing I was asking. By the time all the other thoughts come into it, it's sort of too late for the gut check I was talking about. Thanks!

My initial gut thought is either this person will be really creative and a great player or they will be someone who just thinks they are a good player but isn’t. My gut goes to both extremes at the same time.

 

[Kelly robinson]

Self taught means nothing to me unless they sound great - Then I am jealous they have a gift that I most certainly , don't . Classically trained or highly schooled [ such as Berklee etc ] also means nothing by itself although if they feel the need to say that then I do become somewhat suspicious they felt the need to do so - but again it's all in whether I like how they play in the end . That's all that really matters .... I have a friend who is entirely self taught - he can't name a note or chord on a guitar yet if you put most any CD on - he can play to it and sound like he should have been on it . His ear is amazing but he could have been way greater had he taken up some schooling and gone from a highly talented amateur to a pro studio type dude .... Such is my answer .... Kelly

 

[DirtDog]

Depends.

I played with a highly trained musician at one point. A band mate called him "the best musician in the band". By some measure, true. But his ability to function in a band setting was terrible. He could play anything, so he played everything. And then there's the formally trained musicians with exceptional talent who CAN function in a band.

I've also played with self-taught musicians who I considered to be brilliant players. Some of whom could function in a band, some not.

And of course, there's the rest of us in the middle!

 

[Scott Lynch]

But before hearing a player, if you hear the words "self taught," in that instinctual gut-check part of yourself, do your expectations go up or down.

My expectations don't change, for many of the reasons you state in your original post.

IMO the "self-taught" vs "teacher-taught" dichotomy is a false one. To some extent we all have to teach ourselves and we all have to learn from others. Or to put it another way - learning does not occur in a vacuum, yet we each have to come to our own understanding of things to master them.

 

[fdeck]

I'm classically trained on cello, taught myself electric bass, then took lessons on upright bass. I have some skills that are typically but not exclusively associated with formal training, such as fluent sight reading. On the other hand, I learned jazz improvisation on the bandstand.

Having a teacher guide my technical development on cello and upright bass was extremely beneficial. The upright bass will fight back and win, you if you play it wrong. On the other hand I enjoyed picking up rock by playing along to the radio when I should have been doing my homework.

Informal training approaches are probably part of the appeal of the electric guitar and bass, and of many musical genres that I love. I'd never take that away from people. If someone doesn't take to formal training, for whatever reason, why should they be barred from playing music? The desire to play music will overcome practically any obstacle.

I believe some instruments lend themselves to self training better than others. Self taught players are less common in the bands that I play with, primarily because of the instrumentation. Kids learn to play wind instruments in school band.