That's the kind of thing I was asking. By the time all the other thoughts come into it, it's sort of too late for the gut check I was talking about. Thanks!
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Self Taught: Yea or Nay
- Thread starter Xjenrbcjsmsbfjw
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when someone says they play music or bass or anything self taught or formal my first thought is "really, do you?" cause most cannot play much. i played 3 gigs with three different bands or christmas/nye and none of them had it together. so even the players aren't really players
i am kinda self taught. i took lessons for about a year then went my own way. every once in a while i will take a lesson to learn something i struggle with. but i have had less than 75 lessons for sure. now did i read over those lessons and take everything seriously? you bet your butt i did
i am kinda self taught. i took lessons for about a year then went my own way. every once in a while i will take a lesson to learn something i struggle with. but i have had less than 75 lessons for sure. now did i read over those lessons and take everything seriously? you bet your butt i did
Outside a personal musical bio I honestly can’t ever recall hearing talk of, or having a conversation on the subject, nor have i ever had anyone mention their status. I know a lot of Berklee grads but none of then have ever talked to me about their training or asked me about mine. There is also the fact there is an entire category of players you left out, those of us who are/were home schooled. I had a few lessons at two different periods in my life, but the bulk of my training was OJT sitting around learning from my family members while playing music with them, and later, playing live for a few years with no consistent line up of players or rehearsals. But to answer your question, background elicits no assumption from me where players are concerned. I reserve all judgement of skill until after i’ve heard them play. As for character? That takes a while, but it’s my trust issues and they apply to anyone i don’t know, players included.
I can usually spot someone who’s completely self-taught by things like a very unorthodox playing technique, bizarre chord fingerings, or lack of knowledge about things like basic theory, nomenclature, chord and scale structure, and to a lesser extent by the ability to read.
None of that necessarily had any adverse effect on their musicianship however. Some totally “uneducated” people I’ve worked with have been phenomenal players who could easily blow my doors off in the creativity and performance department. But that said, it often made communications between the two of us difficult. Because there wasn’t a common language we shared, so we had to resort to pointing and “show me” games in order to collaborate. Which was unfortunate since “Ok, it goes like this, and then it goes up here like this, and then it does this…” is a lot less efficient and clear than: “the progression goes Dsus2, Esus2/D, Dmaj7, G/D, back to Dsus2, and you repeat it twice.” And if you’re not both there together, or just jamming, you’re out of luck since you can’t pass charts and chord sheets back and forth via email or text. Or collaborate remotely with DAW files.
So my gut feeling is that I have no gut feeling about a player based on their resume or educational background. Until I hear them play - and play with them a bit - I have no opinion. I don’t like to make assumptions about people. Because people can and will surprise you more often than not.
About all I do expect with a self taught player is that communicating with each other will require more work than it would have if we were both speaking the same lingo. That’s not an insurmountable obstacle. It just makes for more work and some occasional frustration.
None of that necessarily had any adverse effect on their musicianship however. Some totally “uneducated” people I’ve worked with have been phenomenal players who could easily blow my doors off in the creativity and performance department. But that said, it often made communications between the two of us difficult. Because there wasn’t a common language we shared, so we had to resort to pointing and “show me” games in order to collaborate. Which was unfortunate since “Ok, it goes like this, and then it goes up here like this, and then it does this…” is a lot less efficient and clear than: “the progression goes Dsus2, Esus2/D, Dmaj7, G/D, back to Dsus2, and you repeat it twice.” And if you’re not both there together, or just jamming, you’re out of luck since you can’t pass charts and chord sheets back and forth via email or text. Or collaborate remotely with DAW files.
So my gut feeling is that I have no gut feeling about a player based on their resume or educational background. Until I hear them play - and play with them a bit - I have no opinion. I don’t like to make assumptions about people. Because people can and will surprise you more often than not.
About all I do expect with a self taught player is that communicating with each other will require more work than it would have if we were both speaking the same lingo. That’s not an insurmountable obstacle. It just makes for more work and some occasional frustration.
Since almost everyone I’ve played with was self taught, at least initially, it doesn’t bother me at all. I’m more interested in whether someone can play rather than how they learned to play.
When I hear "self taught", I think there could be a higher percentage of natural talent than if I hear "trained". I like playing with talented people, no matter where they are in their ability or how they got there. My favorite is a talented person who has been trained and puts up with my lack of training because they recognize my talent.
I'm a self taught bassist who studied classical music and jazz for 12 years on other instruments. Sounds like there is room for some grey area on this.
"Fierce," may be putting it a bit . . . fiercely. I do think most of the people who've responded have answered a slightly different question than I was trying to ask, which if absolutely fine. I'm not sure what the problem is with saying. "Hey guys, thanks so much for the votes and the interest, but I think I phrased my question poorly." No blame (well, except myself), and no frustration. It's not the first time something has been phrased poorly on TB, and it sure won't be the last.What caught me off guard about your response was that you were fierce to declare, "nobody is answering my question!" but I feel that I did answer your question, by voting in the poll. A lot of people are both voting in the poll (to specifically answer your question) and then also adding additional clarifying or tangential comments in the discussion thread. Then you are jumping on "why is everyone ignoring/misunderstanding my question?" when in fact we are specifically answering your question, by voting in the poll! 28 votes and counting, from people who took your question seriously.
Sorry if my tone is coming off as anything other than "oops, must have been a badly written question, but thanks for the input."
My gut reaction is “they probably suck, this better be good.” Too many bad experiences with self-taughies, myself. There’s too many things that I simply would not know had it not been for someone explaining it to me, and the open mind to accept being taught.
Down, but The real question is: can you play the gig?
Not how, but what have you learned?
"self taught" is a very sloppy descriptor for one's learning path.
Some players are "self taught" and willfully ignorant, others are "self taught" and pursue knowledge ardently.
No decent player is actually completely self taught, The knowledge comes from somewhere.
"self taught" implicitly includes the willfully ignorant, so might not be able to play the gig.
"NOT self taught" at least implies you learned something, and thus are more likely able to play the gig
Sorry. Didn't read all the posts.
I take issue with "better or worse". There are players who can play what they play brilliantly, but not extend into other genres or are slow to learn new material. And players with a wide range, but lacking virtuosity in any area. And the rest of us.
I generally expect a self taught player to be less able to communicate, read, chart, count or pick up new ideas. But I've been proven wrong. I'm a self taught bassist/guitarist, but was in JH/HS band and took piano.
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i have a negative 'gut' when i hear "conservatory."
i have a positive gut when i hear "great chops."
"self-taught" doesn't register a 'gut' for me.
i have a sour gut when i'm given binary choices, but then i realize that'd the limitation of the 'giver', so my gut returns to stasis, favoring 'happy'/content.
good luck trying to convince yourself that something is true...my gut tells me you will be successful! 
i have a positive gut when i hear "great chops."
"self-taught" doesn't register a 'gut' for me.
i have a sour gut when i'm given binary choices, but then i realize that'd the limitation of the 'giver', so my gut returns to stasis, favoring 'happy'/content.
good luck trying to convince yourself that something is true...my gut tells me you will be successful! 
It's not something I think about when I listen to someone play. I'm pretty sure a lot of the people I listen to are either self-taught or have been self-taught at some point in their lives.
However, if someone goes out of their way to tell me that they're self-taught straight off when we first meet, my gut feeling would be that the person is not particularly confident or comfortable with where they musically are at the moment. That would be a bit of a turn off, especially if I were expected to play with them.
However, if someone goes out of their way to tell me that they're self-taught straight off when we first meet, my gut feeling would be that the person is not particularly confident or comfortable with where they musically are at the moment. That would be a bit of a turn off, especially if I were expected to play with them.
Neither. I wait until we've played together. If we can communicate musically and he has chops, great. But if I end up showing him "put your index finger there, pinkie there", or call a F#m7 and get a blank stare ... I'm done ... whether he's classically trained or not. Likewise, if he starts a conversation about this mode or that, or other points of academic theory, but doesn't have command of his instrument, I'm out.
I am admittedly self-taught on bass guitar and upright. But ... I had seven intensive years of piano before ever picking up a guitar or bass. So while my bass chops are self-taught, my knowledge of music in general was formal. I started a few lessons initially, just to become familiar with the instrument, but after a few weeks of playing along with my instructor (he on guitar) he said "I can't teach you a whole lot more, go join a band, come see me if there's anything in particular you want to learn". I was 13 ... 52 years ago.
I'm sort of the opposite. I've played with some great players but the ones who are self taught and have chops are the ones I expect the most from. I expect them to be able to play complicated material by ear, to find and sing a missing third part harmony without coaching, and to have recordings of most popular material at the ready in their own heads. That's been my experience, hands down, with the best self-taught players I've worked with. And they are rare.
The communication issues are an interesting wrinkle. When you're playing from your head and ear, those things just don't come up. Why? Because you already know from your ear what you're supposed to be doing. Clarifying conversations are rarely even needed. Normally if there is a conflict, it's enough to clarify the root of the chord, which is a pretty simple conversation to have. I don't need to hear what chord form it is, my ear already knows where to put my fingers based on what I'm hearing.
Best player I ever worked with had both; was a classically trained guitarist with a great ear and could hear anything in his head that you wanted him to spit out. I sure miss that guy.
I edited this to emphasize chops. That's because I think there are people who go a self-taught route but maybe don't have a very good ear, and these people can sometimes get into trouble. Maybe they think they know more than they do (heck, maybe I think I do, too). As I said in the beginning, I don't judge on method of learning, but what you can play. And once I know you can play, if I find out you're self taught and you're playing complicated stuff, I know you have an ear, and I'm going to expect a lot more from you. That's when my expectations begin to build, but in a good way. I'm excited to find good players with an ear like that, no matter how they got there.
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"That said, next to no one is self-taught -- especially in today's day and age with the Internet."
Good point. By this standard, for a person to be truly self taught, it would require such a low level of curiosity and disregard for readily available information that my expectations would be immediately lowered. I will say that I do know one person who is truly self taught, even by this standard, and although his flexibility as a musician is somewhat limited, his gift for melody and style is better than any formally trained musician I've been around. This is coming from somebody who has a bachelors in music from a program that puts out a decent number of professionals.
Good point. By this standard, for a person to be truly self taught, it would require such a low level of curiosity and disregard for readily available information that my expectations would be immediately lowered. I will say that I do know one person who is truly self taught, even by this standard, and although his flexibility as a musician is somewhat limited, his gift for melody and style is better than any formally trained musician I've been around. This is coming from somebody who has a bachelors in music from a program that puts out a decent number of professionals.
I am not musically gifted at all but I've loved rock music since I saw the Beatles at the age of 10.
I didn't get a guitar until I was 14 and bought a beginner's book with lots of chords shown, and not knowing any musicians or having any in my family I carried that guitar around and occasionally met people who would tune it for me.
I have always said I learned by eye rather than by ear.
I was shown how to play House of the rising son by a high school friend, otherwise I just randomly strummed chords for fun. I couldn't and still have a near impossible time learning songs from recordings.
At 16 I was coaxed into joining a band that needed a bass player and with only a borrowed Harmony electric guitar, I was rote-taught bass parts to songs by the guitarist in the summer of 1969. Slowly slowly slowly after getting a real bass in 1976 I learned how to play from studying how to play scales and arpeggios.
Never had a bass lesson in my life and the only formal music lesson I had was when I was 16-17 and we finally got a music program in my high school and I learned clarinet and treble clef for about 8 months.
I'm finally getting the grip on reading bass clef enough to study lessons out of jazz improv books now.
I've played upright now on a bluegrass CD, electric on a alt-country/rockabily CD and a singer songwriter CD and have played in numerous groups since 1977 at this point.
I really regret not having the opportunity to formally study music more in my youth.
I didn't get a guitar until I was 14 and bought a beginner's book with lots of chords shown, and not knowing any musicians or having any in my family I carried that guitar around and occasionally met people who would tune it for me.
I have always said I learned by eye rather than by ear.
I was shown how to play House of the rising son by a high school friend, otherwise I just randomly strummed chords for fun. I couldn't and still have a near impossible time learning songs from recordings.
At 16 I was coaxed into joining a band that needed a bass player and with only a borrowed Harmony electric guitar, I was rote-taught bass parts to songs by the guitarist in the summer of 1969. Slowly slowly slowly after getting a real bass in 1976 I learned how to play from studying how to play scales and arpeggios.
Never had a bass lesson in my life and the only formal music lesson I had was when I was 16-17 and we finally got a music program in my high school and I learned clarinet and treble clef for about 8 months.
I'm finally getting the grip on reading bass clef enough to study lessons out of jazz improv books now.
I've played upright now on a bluegrass CD, electric on a alt-country/rockabily CD and a singer songwriter CD and have played in numerous groups since 1977 at this point.
I really regret not having the opportunity to formally study music more in my youth.
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Every musician I've ever played with that I thought had an inherent musical "gift", when I asked them how much they practiced, the answer was always more hours than I was putting in. So, I eventually decided to join the gifted...by practicing a lot for years and years. Net result: When I've auditioned, nobody has ever asked me if I was self taught (before or during an audition), they just hire me because I can play. One of the things I like most about music is that talking about how great you are isn't a thing - you show, up, you play, and.....pretty much everyone can figure out where you are without all the unnecessary jaw wagging.
A teacher can point out things you need to work on. Going out and gigging (if you pay attention to where you're working your ass off to keep up, and aren't in denial) can provide the same info. It's not whether you hire someone else as a teacher or not that determines your progress; it's whether you decide to work on getting better, and put in the time and effort in to get there. In my case, I have classical training in music, but specifically on bass, I'm self taught. Where does that put me in this discussion? I don't care. I can play well enough to do what I want, and...I'm still getting better.
