Whether a driver sounds good in the mids is of no account if it blows every gig for lack of bass response and xmax.
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sensitivity or frequency response for cabs?
- Thread starter blakelock
- Start date
Whether a driver sounds good in the mids is of no account if it blows every gig for lack of bass response and xmax.
do we really think that's going to happen to a genz benz cab? seriously?Whether a driver sounds good in the mids is of no account if it blows every gig for lack of bass response and xmax.
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
- 16,860
- 278
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- Disclosures
- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
High priced drivers like Beyma, B&C, 18Sound and McCauley are generally high priced as they have heavier duty voice coils, cones, suspensions, frames etc. For the most part what they offer is beneficial for very high powered PA applications, but not for backline use. And their sensitivity tends to be lower than mid priced drivers, not higher, as their heavy duty construction adds significantly to the driver moving mass, and that comes at the cost of efficiency. The exception would be those with very low Qes/Qts, .25 or less. They have higher sensitivity but it comes at the expense of low end output; they're generally used in PA tops.
When you don't know what the displacement limited power handling is, who knows? How can you know? When you don't know what the real sensitivity is on the bottom, how can you compare it to other cabinets without using the ear test (which is notoriously unreliable in guitar stores at listening volume)?
Practical example:
Which cabinet puts out more sound at 50hz per watt, a Genz Neox112T or a Mesa PH112? Which one can take more power? Who knows? Not me.
Who cares. Just give specs for the "2 percent" who want them, then. Obviously some people do, whatever their reasons are. If you're not hiding anything, shouldn't be any extra work...
Gosh, I can kinda understand if some people think it's pointless to publish specs. But why does it seem like so many of those people are seemingly fighting against those who would like to obtain them...
Gosh, I can kinda understand if some people think it's pointless to publish specs. But why does it seem like so many of those people are seemingly fighting against those who would like to obtain them...
Personally, I've played tons of cabinets and owned tons and gigged a bunch of them, and there are only two issues I've ever had with a cabinet:
1. not enough low end
2. not enough midrange dispersion
I'm probably in the minority but I don't want any tone of out of my cabinet. For me, accurate specs have always proven useful when available.
I think we're starting to go around in circles here. While I think companies should provide polar charts, spl charts, displacement limitation analysis, and so on, they aren't gonna.
The least they can do is provide the minimum specs:
1. displacement limitation @ 31hz, 42hz, 62hz and 84hz or thereabouts
2. summary approximate displacement limitations
3. SPL average below 200hz
4. SPL average above 200hz
5. bottom and top end rolloff numbers
6. Ballpark midrange dispersion falloff
7. Crossover slope and frequency (approximate)
Probably 75% of the bass playing population could use at least half of these specs to make an informed decision if everyone provided accurate specifications.
1. not enough low end
2. not enough midrange dispersion
I'm probably in the minority but I don't want any tone of out of my cabinet. For me, accurate specs have always proven useful when available.
I think we're starting to go around in circles here. While I think companies should provide polar charts, spl charts, displacement limitation analysis, and so on, they aren't gonna.
The least they can do is provide the minimum specs:
1. displacement limitation @ 31hz, 42hz, 62hz and 84hz or thereabouts
2. summary approximate displacement limitations
3. SPL average below 200hz
4. SPL average above 200hz
5. bottom and top end rolloff numbers
6. Ballpark midrange dispersion falloff
7. Crossover slope and frequency (approximate)
Probably 75% of the bass playing population could use at least half of these specs to make an informed decision if everyone provided accurate specifications.
me neither. but if i'm looking for more power handling, i'm certainly not looking at a 112
me neither. but if i'm looking for more power handling, i'm certainly not looking at a 112
Right, but say there're two 1x12s. Both have approximately 94db on the low end (pretty standard) but one has a 3mm xmax and one has 6mm.
How would you even know? Is this a meaningful difference? Hell yes.
Seems reasonable to me, which is why I'm kinda baffled as to why Agedhorse did'nt just produce the SPL chart for the 112 and be done with it. They must have have the info, right ?
He did produce a chart just not the measured 0-200hz section (instead relying on a simulation). I respect and appreciate him taking part in this thread but I remain slightly unconvinced that the simulation is accurate based on Bill's commentary. No biggie though, I don't think it'll make a huge difference.
On the upside: I am pretty sure if I asked Genz they would tell me how much displacement was available on their woofers, and if not I could ballpark it by looking at the deltalite.
On the downside: I don't see any other manufacturers in here discussing these topics except for Baer and Barefaced, both of whom give more accurate than industry standard specs already.
Other downside: I don't see any change in the way people do business on the horizon.
On the upside: I am pretty sure if I asked Genz they would tell me how much displacement was available on their woofers, and if not I could ballpark it by looking at the deltalite.
On the downside: I don't see any other manufacturers in here discussing these topics except for Baer and Barefaced, both of whom give more accurate than industry standard specs already.
Other downside: I don't see any change in the way people do business on the horizon.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 60,951
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- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
See post 172 and 196.
The <200Hz plot shown is simulated but agrees closely with measured data (certainly within +/-1dB), and the >200Hz is measured. Splice the two curves together, they match at the split. My measured data for <200Hz is in legacy A.C.C. format that I can't convert as I use an older instrument for this purpose.
One more post
While I still believe that amplifying bass and guitar with backline is such a complex system that detailed measurement on one part of the signal chain without taking into account the other zillion variables is not very helpful, it is hard to argue against your list above. Very little reason for a manufacturer to not provide that info... BUT... only if there is some requirement that ALL manufacturers post comparable spec's. If not, then the guys 'telling the truth' would probably lose sales (i.e., they would sell a few boxes to the few who knew how to make sense of this stuff, and lose a LOT more sales to the kids who would look at a 55hz -3db roll-off, thinking they couldn't reproduce any notes on their E string
exactly! see, we're all assuming that everyone's going to put out honest specs if all manufacturers adopt this system. but you're still going to have liars. naturally i'm not putting gb in this category...they have been 100% honest as possible from what i've seen (and this argument hasn't changed my mind). but let's face it...there are a lot of out and out lies going on with specs, and even if you hold manufacturers to this standard, some are still going to lie their asses off, which hurts the truth tellers. better not to even bother, quite honestly. i don't blame them in the least.One more post
besides, until they come up with a spec for how big a chub you get when you play through their stuff, i will always take them with a grain of salt no matter what
besides, until they come up with a spec for how big a chub you get when you play through their stuff, i will always take them with a grain of salt no matter what
You are the most 'sig worthy' TBer ever
you post the ridiculous amounts of stuff that i do and the law of averages is on your sideYou are the most 'sig worthy' TBer ever
FOH good quality PA speakers already publish honest measurements, even EASE files.
They haven't been able to shame bass cabinet manufacturers into anything.
BFM and fEarfull should be already be shaming them.
I expect as above Bass cabinet manufacturers are going to push subjective words like "tone" and not EQ. And totally forget about dispersion. They're just as honest as Bose.
They haven't been able to shame bass cabinet manufacturers into anything.
BFM and fEarfull should be already be shaming them.
I expect as above Bass cabinet manufacturers are going to push subjective words like "tone" and not EQ. And totally forget about dispersion. They're just as honest as Bose.
One more post
Now, we are new to all this, so I can admit to having a lot of marketing experience in this area, but this is the point I have been trying to make in a lot of my post. I am pretty sure the point Ken hit on here is a very likely scenario. I also see just as many sales to people that think the specs hit their tone goals, only to be followed later by a return because the cabs "didn't sound like I thought they would sound". I still much prefer that customers try the cabs themselves with their own instruments or do research on a forum like TB where you have a chance to chat with actual users about what the cabs can or can't do.
I certainly don't have any problem posting honest specs on our cabs. They are what they are and the sound either works for you, or it doesn't. As I have stated, I don't think specs sell cabinets, so I see no need to exaggerate the numbers. FYI, the specs on our site are based on prototype units. When we have production units ready for shipping, we will go back and update all information.
