sensitivity or frequency response for cabs?

[Calaverasgrande]

.there are a lot of out and out lies going on with specs, and even if you hold manufacturers to this standard, some are still going to lie their asses off, which hurts the truth tellers.

I dont think any of the major manufacturers out and out lie.
I do know of a couple that have interesting definitions of how to give watt ratings for their amplifiers. One example is to give the peak wattage at less than 1% distortion for one cycle of 100hz. Likewise there are a couple companies that have interesting definitions of how wide their cabinets frequency response is. Now they don't lie when they give this info out, they just put asterisks and footnotes next to all their specs, so it's darn near impossible to compare it apples with apples.

I think I might take a day this week to do some entirely unempircal measurements of all the bass cabs at the studio. There are two different SVT 810e's. An SVT 18, a Mesa 15, an SWR 2x12, and an SWR 4x10.
I guess I will just bring my best omni condenser, my laptop and an audio interface.
I'll run it through one of my plain vanilla audio programs like Audacity or Sonar to get a freq response graph. Sure it wont be anechoic or even half space. But it will be a ballpark representation of what those cabs do. Being that I use a tube head it will be the same watts regardless of 8 or 4 ohm.
I may just loop a bass lick so they all get the same treatment.

 

[rpsands]

It is out and out lying. Check Eden's specs.

 

[agedhorse]

I'll run it through one of my plain vanilla audio programs like Audacity or Sonar to get a freq response graph. Sure it wont be anechoic or even half space. But it will be a ballpark representation of what those cabs do. Being that I use a tube head it will be the same watts regardless of 8 or 4 ohm.
I may just loop a bass lick so they all get the same treatment.

What kind of measurements do you expect to get with a bass lick loop? (hint... what do you expect to get as a measurement result here?)

You sure the power will be the same as you change impedances and amplifier taps (hint... probably not even close)

How do you plan on measuring the input power level to the speaker? With what kind of signal and what kind of meter? (hint... you need to use a signal and meter that are compatable with the measurement you intend to make)

What will your measurement plane be relative to the space plane? (hint... sum and difference phase cancellations)

You might read up on the various measurement techniques so that you understand what you are trying to measure and the various options before you start down this path. There's lots of forks in the road.

 

[The Fumble]

Mesa Boogie don't post any specs in regards to their cabs, all you get is driver compliment, physical size and weight.

I really don't think that is hurting their sales one bit.

Maybe all manufacturers should take the Mesa approach and let people use their ears,
let's see how quickly sales drop off when you don't have "more accurate than everyone else's specifications" to sell your product instead of pure tone.

 

[rpsands]

Not everyone can just use their ears. Many people have limited options on things to try out and must order online, or order without returns possible. These people are the ones for whom specs are vital.

 

[The Fumble]

Cabs are a very small part of what makes a gigging setup.

You'll never know what an amp, effect or bass will sound like with specs, how do people in the same situation go about ordering them?

 

[rpsands]

Cabs are a very small part of what makes a gigging setup.

You'll never know what an amp, effect or bass will sound like with specs, how do people in the same situation go about ordering them?

Umm, there are tons of specs for basses and amps and you can use many of them to help you make wise decisions. To say otherwise is absurd.

For example on Amps:
EQ points
Wattage
Weight
Cooling mechanism (no loud fans in the studio!)
Preamp configuration (tubes, not)
Power amp configuration (tubes, not)
Low end shelving (some vendors provide this)
Effects loop configuration
DI configuration (and output levels)

On basses:
Pickup types
Pickup positions
Weight
Preamp type, eq points, options
Neck/Body Wood
Graphite reinforced or not?
Fret types
Fingerboard

Using all of these you can make some pretty reasonable educated guesses as to what an amp or bass will sound like. It's not 100% but it really helps narrow things down.

 

[synaesthesia]

Umm, there are tons of specs for basses and amps and you can use many of them to help you make wise decisions. To say otherwise is absurd.

For example on Amps:
EQ points
Wattage
Weight
Cooling mechanism (no loud fans in the studio!)
Preamp configuration (tubes, not)
Power amp configuration (tubes, not)
Low end shelving (some vendors provide this)
Effects loop configuration
DI configuration (and output levels)

On basses:
Pickup types
Pickup positions
Weight
Preamp type, eq points, options
Neck/Body Wood
Graphite reinforced or not?
Fret types
Fingerboard

Using all of these you can make some pretty reasonable educated guesses as to what an amp or bass will sound like. It's not 100% but it really helps narrow things down.

BS. All the knock offs can have the same provision and claim same descriptive spec but they do not sound like the product they are trying to copy. Frankly you do not need specs just to make a GUESS. You can GUESS without them just as well.

 

[rpsands]

Yet again with the pointless contrariness. EMG pickups sound different than Bartolini pickups. Maple fingerboards sound and feel different than rosewood fingerboards. Active preamps with 3-band eq's sound different than passive tone knobs.

Sure, some companies lie about that, but if you can't tell maple from rosewood in a picture you're crazy.

Specs matter. Most people can look at the specs for a Schecter with 18v EMGs and realize that it isn't going to sound like a P bass out of the box.

 

[The Fumble]

Umm, there are tons of specs for basses and amps and you can use many of them to help you make wise decisions. To say otherwise is absurd.

For example on Amps:
EQ points
Wattage
Weight
Cooling mechanism (no loud fans in the studio!)
Preamp configuration (tubes, not)
Power amp configuration (tubes, not)
Low end shelving (some vendors provide this)
Effects loop configuration
DI configuration (and output levels)

On basses:
Pickup types
Pickup positions
Weight
Preamp type, eq points, options
Neck/Body Wood
Graphite reinforced or not?
Fret types
Fingerboard

Using all of these you can make some pretty reasonable educated guesses as to what an amp or bass will sound like. It's not 100% but it really helps narrow things down.

You've described the points of 95% of the gear out there has in common, are you implying they all sound the same?

 

[seamonkey]

Cabs are a very small part of what makes a gigging setup.

You'll never know what an amp, effect or bass will sound like with specs, how do people in the same situation go about ordering them?

You would actually. You can use the measurements as a reference point.

If you have a cabinet now, and like what it does with your amp, and if you have measurements for it,
Then you'd have what you need, If you were ever looking for a new cabinet, or wanted to recommend to somebody else what measurements to look for.

I'm talking Measurements - not marketing specs.

The FOH house sound people can make or break the sound of any band. They rely on measurements. And they can setup for any type of room or venue.

I don't get why some think measurements are evil. Honest Measurements always agree with your ears. We just need more honest measurements so people see how they relate.

 

[rpsands]

Go look again at some other amps and basses.

Compare for example, the MB500 to the Markbass F1. Low mid frequency center of 250hz vs. 360hz -- significantly different.

Steinberger with a graphite neck and EMGs vs. a passive Jazz bass with a rosewood board

You really think pickup types and position are the same on 95% of all basses? You think the eq centers are the same? The wattage? Preamp type?

 

[The Fumble]

Go look again at some other amps and basses.

Compare for example, the MB500 to the Markbass F1. Low mid frequency center of 250hz vs. 360hz -- significantly different.

Steinberger with a graphite neck and EMGs vs. a passive Jazz bass with a rosewood board

You really think pickup types and position are the same on 95% of all basses? You think the eq centers are the same? The wattage? Preamp type?

Check out an Aguilar AG500 and a Markbass LMIII, specs are fairly damn close and they sound worlds apart,
same can be said for most simple passive P and J bass copies.

Edit to add: I'm all for specs, they can help in some decisions,
but in the end they mean nothing when in the real world your amp, cab and bass don't match up, even though the numbers do.

Just think, you could be robbing yourself of some real enjoyment and great tone, just because you poo-pooed it on paper

 

[will33]

Finally, a thread about this stuff that has legs. Thanks to the Genz guys for even delving into it. I don't see any other largish/wide distribution company reps even taking a stab at it. They're hiding in the corner waiting for it to go away.

I think all this could be solved by simply publishing FR charts, excursion charts and polar response charts. You could do that all on one graph if you've got different colors. That means to a set standard as BFM keeps bringing up. They use the standard set for PA stuff. If you don't think that applies to a bass cab...BS. You have a speaker that reproduces sound, you can measure it and publish it. If everybody tested and published theirs to the same standard, comparisons would be easy. No messing with this nuance or that "tone". You should be able to look at a chart and get some approximation of what it will sound like.

IMO, this should be part of every class or private teachers material once you get past your first $99 bass and 15W practice amp. Learning what a bass is and what it does and being a well rounded musician consists of more than plucking notes.

Having 94db in the lows but factoring a single 103db 3k spike into the average really is BS. So is picking a number based on mid sensitivity and ignoring the lows. Showing a chart would take all the BS away and just show what you have. Off axis is a very important factor as well as most of your audience, the rest of your band and often times yourself are not centered on your rig. That kind of info is never provided, if it was the 410 would go the way of the horse and buggy.

 

[rpsands]

Check out an Aguilar AG500 and a Markbass LMIII, specs are fairly damn close and they sound worlds apart,
same can be said for most simple passive P and J bass copies.

Edit to add: I'm all for specs, they can help in some decisions,
but in the end they mean nothing when in the real world your amp, cab and bass don't match up, even though the numbers do.

Just think, you could be robbing yourself of some real enjoyment and great tone, just because you poo-pooed it on paper

The wattage is the same. The EQ points could not be more different. The contour is at a different frequency, the bands are all different. One has a high gain channel and one doesn't. One has a low pass filter built in. One has a footswitchable channel selector. One has a much more flexible FX loop.

One is class D with an SMPS, one is Class A/B with a toroidal.

One weighs 18lbs, one weighs 6lbs.

On paper those amps look NOTHING alike. NOTHING.

No one in his right mind would expect those amps to sound remotely similar.

 

[The Fumble]

The wattage is the same. The EQ points could not be more different. The contour is at a different frequency, the bands are all different. One has a high gain channel and one doesn't. One has a low pass filter built in. One has a footswitchable channel selector. One has a much more flexible FX loop.

One is class D with an SMPS, one is Class A/B with a toroidal.

One weighs 18lbs, one weighs 6lbs.

On paper those amps look NOTHING alike. NOTHING.

No one in his right mind would expect those amps to sound remotely similar.

My bad, I left off the SC (Single Channel) part, the eq points aren't that far off, you really are being pedantic.

Aside from all the extra parts of fx loops they really arent that far apart.

Hell, go find yourself an Alembic F1x with a 500w poweramp and a Hartke LH500 and see if they sound exactly the same, my guess is they won't.

 

[fdeck]

In my view, there are a couple of serious issues with "specsmanship" that make it difficult for speaker makers.

First, there are tradeoffs, especially if you consider factors like overall size. Remember the "small, loud, low" rule. Thus, every real-world speaker will have some specs that seem like "negatives" compared to competitors. If you publish honest specs, your competitors will use all of your negatives against you before publishing their own specs, or will selectively publish their positives but not their negatives.

Second, it is possible to learn a lot about a design from response curves. You could spend a lot of time and money to design a speaker that sounds good, and your competitor could take your curves and quickly design a speaker with similar curves with much less R&D cost. It would be very hard to sell against a competitor who says: "Look, we have the same specs for a lower price."

Thus in my view, the first few courageous gear makers who publish full specs may very well suffer from doing so. It makes little sense for any gear maker to be the first.

Gear that is sold to professionals with engineering expertise is another story. The engineers know the tradeoffs already. That's why Eminence is happy to offer full specs for their drivers. I belong to the 2% who care about specs, and so I buy Eminence drivers and build my own boxes. Problem solved.

I don't blame the honest gear makers for trying to stay in business. Hats off to the guys who have offered their expertise on this forum.

 

[rpsands]

My bad, I left off the SC (Single Channel) part, the eq points aren't that far off, you really are being pedantic.

Aside from all the extra parts of fx loops they really arent that far apart.

Hell, go find yourself an Alembic F1x with a 500w poweramp and a Hartke LH500 and see if they sound exactly the same, my guess is they won't.

A 600hz midrange control is nothing at all like a 360hz low mid and 800hz high mid control. Nothing at all. Not even in the same ballpark. Ask anyone who knows how eq works

I would actually wager an F1X and LH500 could be made to sound extremely similarly. I can't say from experience but they're very similar preamps.

I know that my PB1 and BBE 383 with similar preamps can sound quite similar.

 

[The Fumble]

A 600hz midrange control is nothing at all like a 360hz low mid and 800hz high mid control. Nothing at all. Not even in the same ballpark. Ask anyone who knows how eq works

I would actually wager an F1X and LH500 could be made to sound extremely similarly. I can't say from experience but they're very similar preamps.

I know that my PB1 and BBE 383 with similar preamps can sound quite similar.

Not sure what youre looking at, the Ag500sc has a low mid of 400hz and a high mid of 800hz, similar no?

I have a fine understanding of how eq works, please don't patronise me,
it's very supercilious of you to do so and not conducive toward the discussion at hand .

 

[rpsands]

Not sure what youre looking at, the Ag500sc has a low mid of 400hz and a high mid of 800hz, similar no?

I have a fine understanding of how eq works, please don't patronise me,
it's very supercilious of you to do so and not conducive toward the discussion at hand .

Ah, the AG500sc.

Ag500sc
-No contour control
-no variable lpf
-external pre/post switch
-toroidal class AB

lm2
-no footswitchable mute
-no tuner out
-no 1/4" outs
-no "bright" eq
-no "deep" eq
-different high frequency slopes
-smps class D

Lots of decision points to help you make up your mind, all spelled out in the specs. Similar frequency slopes but vastly different overall eq possibilities.

Someone might think they sound similar but no one would expect to be able to achieve the same range of sounds by any stretch.

No one would buy the Markbass expecting to be able to boost at 100hz (Deep switch). No one would buy the AG expecting to be able to smoothly roll off the highs or have a contour knob.

And what you did was cherry pick two amps with similar eq points. And that's all they have in common is the 4 primary eq points.

Go look at a GK amp or an Ampeg amp; vastly different eq sections from these.