serious opportunity- what to know legally

[hernameisrio]

We settled our personal differences and I'll be sending him a demo this weekend. He ain't no friend of mine, but I already have plenty of those, so I don't really care. If I have a chance to land something like this? I'm gonna go for it. If it happens, I'll get a lawyer and a manager and have a team of people on my side. If this allows me to "break in," if it singlehandedly delivers me from the grind and the struggle? Getting to keep 80% still seems a better deal than getting to keep 0% because it didn't happen because I held out for something better that might not come along for another couple of years. Do I kinda feel like I'm signing a pact with the devil? Yeah...but it still beats crappy unpaid gigs, a day job, and a city I'm burned out on. I will build the defensive line that is necessary to work in this business without getting burned, if that's what it's gonna take. But I don't want to pass this up.

 

[hernameisrio]

For what it's worth, I am also going to speak to a lawyer after/if I get the gig.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

We settled our personal differences and I'll be sending him a demo this weekend. He ain't no friend of mine, but I already have plenty of those, so I don't really care. If I have a chance to land something like this? I'm gonna go for it. If it happens, I'll get a lawyer and a manager and have a team of people on my side. If this allows me to "break in," if it singlehandedly delivers me from the grind and the struggle? Getting to keep 80% still seems a better deal than getting to keep 0% because it didn't happen because I held out for something better that might not come along for another couple of years. Do I kinda feel like I'm signing a pact with the devil? Yeah...but it still beats crappy unpaid gigs, a day job, and a city I'm burned out on. I will build the defensive line that is necessary to work in this business without getting burned, if that's what it's gonna take. But I don't want to pass this up.

I don't understand. You already have an audition right? You haven't signed anything with your friend right? You will be auditioning with them before even signing anything right? Do you even know if the band is aware of your friend or what their relationship is?

Answer those for us first, because you seem way too eager to shoot yourself in the foot right now, and for no reason.

 

[azureblue]

anything with any one, at this point, DON'T. DO not sign anything until you have seen the whole picture and know all the details and have all paperwork reviewed by a music biz attorney.

This "friend" is acting like an agent, but I can't tell from your post if he wants a single percentage or a long term cut. If he demands a long term percentage, then you in turn demand that he provide x amount of dollars per year in additional income for you. Not just from what you make with this group. That is, in addition the the gig he is setting you up for. Drop in a no performance escape clause, and you're good. You can have some fun and allow him, say 10% of the money you make with this group, and 17% of money from the sources he must provide you with.

But I strongly suggest you get a contract with this person that spells it all out to the penny, and form what sources he will be getting a percentage of. I would suggest a one shot percentage of 17% for making the connect. That is, if you get $50,000 for signing with them, he gets 17% of that and that's all, and he has no further claim on your income, and most important no royalties or reuse or residuals income.. You can get sneaky with the wording, so he is signing with your company, so therefore he will make money only on income reported by that company.

NOW, set your self up as a small business, to isolate yourself from legal actions, and, to get a tax number. Get a music biz attorney to do this for you, and have him explain how you will sign the contract with the band, and that money goes into your business, from which you get paid. You will be surprise what you can write off as a business expense. Let this "friend" know that you will be reporting his percentage as a cost of business, so you must have his SS number or tax ID. From my experiences with grifters and leeches in this biz, the mere mention of IRS will send them away.

 

[bluestarbass]

I've had this kinda thing happen a few times. Movie soundtracks, promised tours, big bands, lots of money promised. I hae zero to show from it. Music is now done for fun. Even the big guys make a lot less than you think. Maybe I'm missing something, but you already have the contact for the audition. I'd contact that person directly and never talk to this "friend" again. That's how the music industry works.

 

[shadven]

Call his bluff. See if you actually get he audition.

Tell him you won't sign anything with him until you get the gig.

If by miracle of miracles you get the gig (I hope you do), you at this point are not legally obligated to him for squat. You can be gracious and give him 10% of your first year (excluding advances).

 

[JohnMCA72]

Biggest red flag (of many) of all: The "lifetime" clause, that has you paying 20% for as long as you're associated with the band. A definite time period needs to be specified, not open-ended. 20% of first-year's earnings might be reasonable, for what is essentially a head-hunter fee. That's how it would work in any other industry, where a head-hunter connects an employer with employee. Head-hunters get some set amount, such as one month's salary, percentage of a year's pay, etc. that's due when the head-hunter has done what he's promised, i.e. get you the job (gig). If he gets you the gig, then services are earned, & he gets a check one time only. If you don't get the gig, he gets nothing.

Also remember that free legal advice gotten from online forums is worth at most what you've paid for it. You need to speak with an attorney who practices in entertainment law. Most attorneys will give you an initial 1/2 hour consultation free, & that time spent is infinitely more valuable than anything you'll get here.

 

[Roy Vogt]

Contact this guy, he's an attorney and a bassist and a good guy and he may be able to give you a read on the situation for little or no cost.
At least you might be able to find something of value in the blogs.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Be careful!

 

[Downunderwonder]

At the audition, find out if the band has any contractual relationship with the "friend." If not, then after you're established in the band, it would be nice to send the "friend" a nice gift as a sort of finders fee and token of appreciation.

Right on.

Question, what difference does it make if the "<cough> friend" has an arrangement with the band? Is he already on 20% manger fee so OP then makes 80% of her contracted share of 80%? Showbiz maths never fails to stun me.

 

[hernameisrio]

I don't understand.

1. You already have an audition right?
2. You haven't signed anything with your friend right?
3. You will be auditioning with them before even signing anything right?
4. Do you even know if the band is aware of your friend or what their relationship is?

Answer those for us first, because you seem way too eager to shoot yourself in the foot right now, and for no reason.

1. Yes.
2. No.
3. Yes.
4. No.
5. Reinstall the operating system.

 

[NickyBass]

Make him a counter-offer. Tell him that if he departs your presence in 35 seconds, he won't meet the business end of a Louisville Slugger.

 

[hernameisrio]

I was initially torn between that, and mailing him a severed pig's head...but I'm a vegan so that last one kinda goes against my principles.

It was also suggested that I sign something "under duress" (I think that's the term?!) and then be like, "Oh @#$ I thought I had to sign this in order to get the gig, my bad" and take his @$$ to court.

I don't know man. I'm a little new to the picnic here but I think I ultimately want what a lot of musicians do. My goals are simple and many of them coincide with this opportunity: live someplace that I've been curious about for a while anyway (LA), have a life that doesn't make me miserable (playing music in a commercially successful band), making more money than I've ever made in my entire life thus far, getting noticed by the public and by people who can further my career, and ultimately, being able to- at the least- put my day job on hold and get to the next level of things in a way which- from what I can understand thus far of this business- is virtually unheard of.

Soooo if it means sending some @@#% who I never have to see again for the rest of my goddamn life 20 cents for every dollar I make?

First of all...wait, isn't that what the music industry IS?! How is this different?

And second of all...what's the alternative? Continue beating my head against the wall and "paying my dues" like everyone else does? If that's what I "have" to do, so be it...but if I can be absolved from that in one fell swoop, it's kind of like asking a starving child if they would like to go to a gourmet restaurant.

I think if I play my cards right, there is room here to be able to protect myself (this is all assuming I get the gig, of course). I think I have to at least follow through on my end, if only to truly see what lies ahead.

Am I fully prepared to get a lawyer and a manager? Uh, I CAN be and I WILL be! So...I'm gonna proceed with caution. I think there is a middle ground to be had. I just have to educate myself. I had a look at the link Roy posted and it was very helpful. I have a decent network of music industry people in this city and if I use all my resources, I think there is a way through this where everybody can win. That doesn't involve Louisville Sluggers.

 

[Febs]

And second of all...what's the alternative?

Negotiate a better referral arrangement in advance and avoid the prospect of lengthy, stressful, expensive litigation.

Am I fully prepared to get a lawyer and a manager? Uh, I CAN be and I WILL be! So...I'm gonna proceed with caution.

Proceeding with caution would consulting with a lawyer before going any further. Consulting with a lawyer after it is potentially too late is proceeding with reckless abandon, not caution.

 

[hrodbert696]

Just weighing in to agree with others - talk to a lawyer. It might cost you a hundred bucks or something - better than being in hock to a scumbag for thousands or millions in the long run.

And agreeing with what others have said - it looks like he's trying to get twice what a legit manager would take of your earnings in perpetuity, without actually doing any of the work a manager does, just putting you in touch with someone who may or may not have a legit opportunity. I would pass.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

It was also suggested that I sign something "under duress" (I think that's the term?!) and then be like, "Oh @#$ I thought I had to sign this in order to get the gig, my bad" and take his @$$ to court.

I don't know man. I'm a little new to the picnic here but I think I ultimately want what a lot of musicians do. My goals are simple and many of them coincide with this opportunity: live someplace that I've been curious about for a while anyway (LA), have a life that doesn't make me miserable (playing music in a commercially successful band), making more money than I've ever made in my entire life thus far, getting noticed by the public and by people who can further my career, and ultimately, being able to- at the least- put my day job on hold and get to the next level of things in a way which- from what I can understand thus far of this business- is virtually unheard of.

Soooo if it means sending some @@#% who I never have to see again for the rest of my goddamn life 20 cents for every dollar I make?

First of all...wait, isn't that what the music industry IS?! How is this different?

And second of all...what's the alternative? Continue beating my head against the wall and "paying my dues" like everyone else does? If that's what I "have" to do, so be it...but if I can be absolved from that in one fell swoop, it's kind of like asking a starving child if they would like to go to a gourmet restaurant.

I think if I play my cards right, there is room here to be able to protect myself (this is all assuming I get the gig, of course). I think I have to at least follow through on my end, if only to truly see what lies ahead.

Am I fully prepared to get a lawyer and a manager? Uh, I CAN be and I WILL be! So...I'm gonna proceed with caution. I think there is a middle ground to be had. I just have to educate myself. I had a look at the link Roy posted and it was very helpful. I have a decent network of music industry people in this city and if I use all my resources, I think there is a way through this where everybody can win. That doesn't involve Louisville Sluggers.

I don't understand. You already have an audition right? You haven't signed anything with your friend right? You will be auditioning with them before even signing anything right? Do you even know if the band is aware of your friend or what their relationship is?

Answer those for us first, because you seem way too eager to shoot yourself in the foot right now, and for no reason.

1. Yes.
2. No.
3. Yes.
4. No.
5. Reinstall the operating system.

The alternative, since you haven't signed or agreed to anything with your friend, is that you do the audition, land the gig, and then don't worry about anything. If you haven't agreed to a percentage before the audition then why sign anything after the audition that says you now owe him something? Your friend is an idiot for not trying to get something signed beforehand, so use that to your advantage (and for the love of all that is holy don't tell him this).

Besides, you don't know this band's financial position. They might seem famous and rich to an outsider, but they might be incredibly in debt. You might be joining a band that will end up losing you money for a few years before you even begin to turn a profit, and once you do start making money you'll be owing some schmo a percentage of your earnings? Come on now. Since you haven't signed anything and since you already have an audition I simply would try out, land the gig, and then tell your friend to pound sand if he starts asking for money. As of now, I don't see how you owe him anything, and I don't understand why you think you do unless you're not telling us something.

 

[the_stone]

Just saw this link posted in another part of the forum, and thought it might give you some perspective on the trials and tribulations of the musical industry:

http://thegauntlet.com/article/391/27370/Dave-Lombardo-Kicked-Off-SLAYER-Tour#.USeFGK73zEY

I agree with pretty much everyone else on here - from reading your posts, you sound like you're in a pretty rough spot in both your life and career right now. I've been there, as I'm sure have many people on this forum. I guess the one thing that I would reiterate is this: do not let your dream of a better musical life cloud your thinking over this situation. Proceed carefully, ask questions, take notes, and get professional assistant from people who have no "skin in the game." I've been in similar situations involving bands/music projects, and 9 times out of 10, all the talk and smoke screens involved is so someone can sell me a Pinto that I think is a Ferrari.

Also, my wife and I lived in NYC for a few years, and she had a social worker internship at the local musician's union. Her work involved helping older musicians who were living in poverty acquire and pay for basic services: rent, utilities, food, medical care. She wasn't (and still isn't) able to tell me who her clients were, but she could look them up on the internet - and she assured me that many of her clients were VERY well-known musicians from the 40's, 50's, and 60's that were the victims of unscrupulous business practices. Guys that had top-selling albums, toured the world, and made plenty of money back in the day, and were spending their advanced years in poverty because they were taken advantage of.

 

[Febs]

The alternative, since you haven't signed or agreed to anything with your friend, is that you do the audition, land the gig, and then don't worry about anything. If you haven't agreed to a percentage before the audition then why sign anything after the audition that says you now owe him something?

As vilkai noted earlier, she may be implicitly agreeing to his terms by participating in the audition. At a minimum, she is subjecting herself to the risk of litigation where the lack of a written agreement could potentially be just as much of a problem for her as for the friend. The cost of consulting with a lawyer now and having the lawyer assist with memorializing the agreement, if necessary, is very small compared to the cost of paying a lawyer to litigate the issue layer.

Since you haven't signed anything and since you already have an audition I simply would try out, land the gig, and then tell your friend to pound sand if he starts asking for money. As of now, I don't see how you owe him anything, and I don't understand why you think you do unless you're not telling us something.

Suppose someone posted the following here on TB:

I am thinking of changing jobs. A headhunter contacted me and told me that he has a lead for me that is a perfect fit with my experience. His fee is 20% of my salary for the first year.

Would you advise that person, "go ahead and schedule the interview, land the job, and then tell the headhunter to pound sand if he starts asking for money"?

 

[jeffbrown]

Lawyer is a MUST. Don't sign a thing until you consult, and if you are presented with some sort of contract, take it under advisement and then TAKE IT TO THE LAWYER for him to review!

You've said you are giving the (former) friend a demo. Is that your audition? Is it he that is going to deliver it to the band? Or are you going to actually play for/with them to audition? I would for sure examine his relationship with the band.

There are SO many red flags here.

I've known desperate. In fact, in my professional life (not music), I'm there right now, in danger of losing my *part-time* job, which is on an on-call basis as it is. No other prospects and only a half-hearted hint of employment outside of my field later this spring. At my age, in this economy, it isn't pretty.

That said, given the opportunity you've outlined, I would DARN sure make it work FOR ME, and not anyone else, because can you really afford, long- and short term, any other way?

Its your dream; don't let it become a nightmare.

HTH!

 

[Roy Vogt]

I can't afford a lawyer! Unless it's possible to do a one-time consultation of some sort..?!

This is somebody who's worked in the business for decades, albeit as a musician who's toured with big acts and made A LOT, and as an engineer/studio owner. Which is why I'm kinda scratching my head, because like...shouldn't he know better?

He should, it sounds like he's just trying to make a quick buck off a gullible (he thinks) youngster. I refer people all the time and never take a cent. This smells broke and desperate on his part to me. How's his cashflow these days?
+1 on a one-time consultation with a Music Attorney. Unless he's representing himself as your Manager to the Act already, in which case you may have to pass on this one or make a Deal with the proverbial Devil (not my recommendation).

 

[jmattbassplaya]

As vilkai noted earlier, she may be implicitly agreeing to his terms by participating in the audition. At a minimum, she is subjecting herself to the risk of litigation where the lack of a written agreement could potentially be just as much of a problem for her as for the friend. The cost of consulting with a lawyer now and having the lawyer assist with memorializing the agreement, if necessary, is very small compared to the cost of paying a lawyer to litigate the issue layer.



Suppose someone posted the following here on TB:

I am thinking of changing jobs. A headhunter contacted me and told me that he has a lead for me that is a perfect fit with my experience. His fee is 20% of my salary for the first year.

Would you advise that person, "go ahead and schedule the interview, land the job, and then tell the headhunter to pound sand if he starts asking for money"?

Unless a contract is signed or unless verbal agreements are binding in the state, I'd have a very hard time believing this friend could do anything to the OP. That in mind, I'm no lawyer, so consulting one is a must in these circumstances. That is a given.

That all said, I'm seeing a HUGE issue with the OP's desperation in this matter. In my mind, anyone who's willing to sacrifice 20% of their income this readily and without knowing all the facts (the friend's relationship with the band, the band's financial standing, how much the OP stands to make if they join the band, etc...) is setting themselves up for failure. As Jeff said a couple posts back, I'd be making sure this whole situation will work in my favor. The OP, however, seems willing to cut off his or her nose despite their face. If that's the attitude they are going to take, my suggestion is to not even bother with this friend or this situation.