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serious opportunity- what to know legally

#81
There was a bird that was flying south for the winter, and lost it's way. It became cold, and the bird was nowhere near where it wanted to be. As it got colder, the bird became weaker and sick. After a while of getting nowhere, the bird was about to give up and found a barn where it could lay down somewhere warm and die.

Then all of a sudden, a cow walked up to the bird and took a big crap that landed on the bird. The cow poop warmed up the bird, and the bird was starting to feel better. It was feeling so good that the bird started to sing. On the other side of the barn, there was a cat who heard the bird singing. The cat came up to bird, and started wiping all the crap off the bird. After the cat got all the crap off the bird, the cat killed and ate the bird.

There's 3 morals to this story:
1. Not everyone who $h1ts on you means you harm.
2. Not everyone who tries to get $h1t off you has your best interests.
3. If you get $h1t on, and you come out ahead, keep your mouth shut.
 
#82
I sense desperation among all concerned. The truth is there are no "one shot Big Breaks" IME. A player's career is a series of gigs and opportunities leading to other gigs and opportunities. If you've got it goin' on other people will find out and you'll keep getting calls.
Case in point: in 1988 I didn't get hired by Roy Orbison, but the year after that I got hired by Jerry Reed and toured with him for 5 years followed by 7 1/2 years with Engelbert and lots of international touring. Not getting the Orbison gig didn't matter at all.
 
#83
jmattbassplaya said:
Unless a contract is signed or unless verbal agreements are binding in the state, I'd have a very hard time believing this friend could do anything to the OP. That in mind, I'm no lawyer, so consulting one is a must in these circumstances. That is a given.
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Well, now, that's much different (and much wiser) than your prior advice to "try out, land the gig, and then tell your friend to pound sand if he starts asking for money."
 
#84
The last thing she should do is "memorialize" anything. Then she will definitely be stuck paying him forever at his obscene percentage.

The guy is a crook, plain and simple. He sees an easy opportunity to make money for doing next to nothing.

There are a few things that don't make sense and that the OP still maddeningly refuses to elucidate on (maybe she just doesn't know).

1. Why is this guy in the position to get her this audition? Does he actually have some tangible connection to the band (used to play them, friends with them, same management team, etc...)? Or did he just find an ad in an music industry paper, etc... and think she would be a good fit and started seeing dollar signs?

2. What is the actual process by which this alleged audition was set up? Did the guy make contact? Did he give her the contact information to set up the audition herself?

3. Is there actually an audition? This band is apparently in LA, where is the audition going to be? Is there an actual date, time, and place for the audition that's been finalized? Did that info come from the band and their organization, or from the shady douchebag?

4. If there is an audition, or it can't be verified, how did she get it? From what I've seen, it doesn't seem like she's been in any particularly successful bands or is well known or anything like that. And she says she is supposed to send a demo to the douchebag (presumably to send along to the band). So my question is how did she get an audition without them hearing her or her having a strong reputation? And if she does have the audition, why does she need to send the demo? Something doesn't make sense about that whole process.

If you have a date, time, and place for the audition already confirmed and/or if you have the bands contact info (or could look it up, I'm assuming by now you probably know who the band is), just send them your demo directly. The less part the douchebag has in the whole process, the less claim he will have on any money down the line.

If you have to still go through him to get to the point of an audition, I would string him along only as long as necessary, and be vague and ambiguous with your replies. Use his own eagerness for you to get this gig against him. He WANTS this really badly, because he thinks it will be a big payday for him forever basically. I mean, if you take 20% of someone's lifetime earnings for 5 minutes of work, and you do that 5 times, you just set yourself up with a full income for life for about half an hour worth of work. Don't look at it like "oh, but I'll still be making so much more than I ever have". Look at it like you are EARNING THAT MONEY. If you get the gig, it's YOUR MONEY. He doesn't deserve ANY of it, let alone 20% forever. Think how much better you'll be set up later on in life with that extra 20% accruing in a retirement account. Also, keep in mind, if this band is legit, you are going to be paying taxes on what you make. Which will probably be about 25% or so as well. Are you really ok with losing half your income to others?

And if you can't manage to at least see a lawyer for free for a consultation, at least get on the internet and do some searching for both federal contract law and NYS/NYC contract law and try to get those answers yourself to the extent that you're able. Typically whatever codes you need will be available online, although you might have to poke around a bit to find the actual text.

You really need to wake up to the realities of the situation and be your own advocate. Because as much as people here would like to help you, all any of us can do is just give you the best advice we know how to give. YOU are the one who has to get out there in the real world and make it happen for yourself. You might think you will get there by being a doormat, but actually the reverse is true. Someone like puff daddy has probably 100s of millions of dollars, and yet he has zero talent. So how do you think he got to where he is now (or lets say where he was 10-15 years ago)? By being assertive and getting things done and not taking any BS from anyone. Don't be a bitch about it, but you have to look out for yourself.

Good luck.
 
#85
jungleheat said:
The last thing she should do is "memorialize" anything. Then she will definitely be stuck paying him forever at his obscene percentage.
Click to expand...

I assume that this is in response to my post, since I am the only one in the thread to use the word "memorialize," so perhaps I may not have been clear enough in what I wrote. The OP suggested that she has no alternative to accepting the arrangement. I suggested that one alternative is to negotiate a different referral fee. I then suggested that she consult with a lawyer before going to any audition and that, if necessary (i.e., if she is able to negotiate an acceptable arrangement), that the lawyer can assist her with memorializing that agreement. I also pointed out that it is much less expensive to have a lawyer assist in memorializing the agreement now than it would be to litigate later regarding what the terms of the agreement are.
 
#86
My understanding of verbal contracts is that generally the contract has to have been performed for some time for it to be considered legit. Otherwise it's just discussion. So if I say, sure I'll pay you $650 a month for rent, do just that for 4 months, and then decide to pay $450, you can take me to court and say there was a verbal agreement to pay $650, show that that's what I was paying, and it will probably hold up in court.

However, just talking about possible terms of a possible deal does not necessarily constitute a contract, and I think the douchebag would have an EXTREMELY hard time proving it did in most cases, especially considering the extremely exploitative and one sided terms.

Her best hope at this point, if she still needs him to get in the door (literally) of the audition is to just keep stringing him along the minimum amount necessary to get the connection with the band, and then sever the connection with the douchebag. And avoid emails and texts where she agrees to his 20%.
 
#87
jungleheat said:
My understanding of verbal contracts is that generally the contract has to have been performed for some time for it to be considered legit. Otherwise it's just discussion.
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Subject to certain statutory limitations that vary from state to state, oral contracts are generally enforceable. They are just more difficult to prove than written contracts. A lawyer can advise her as to her specific rights under the applicable state's law.

Her best hope at this point, if she still needs him to get in the door (literally) of the audition is to just keep stringing him along the minimum amount necessary to get the connection with the band, and then sever the connection with the douchebag.
Click to expand...

That is bad advice.

And avoid emails and texts where she agrees to his 20%.
Click to expand...

She lays out her understanding of the terms in this thread.
 
#88
Febs said:
Subject to certain statutory limitations that vary from state to state, oral contracts are generally enforceable. They are just more difficult to prove than written contracts.
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Try next to impossible. Unless as I said, the party being sued started performing their duties under the contract (ie paying the 20%). Otherwise it comes down pretty much to he said/she said, and you're looking at a negotiating process where there is no signed contract, and no performance under that contract, so what is the proof of the contract?

Febs said:
That is bad advice.
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Uhm, your advice is for her to actually SIGN SOMETHING that lays out written and concrete terms, which means she will owe this guy forever, definitively.

My advice is for her to keep everything strictly oral, don't really agree concretely to anything and give the guy just enough platitudes to keep him off her back, using his own enthusiasm over an undeserved payday against him.

OR she could do like you would and try to rock his boat to get more favorable but concrete terms that she would be stuck with forever. That's if he doesn't balk and take the opportunity away from her.

So what exactly does she have to gain from that scenario?

Febs said:
She lays out her understanding of the terms in this thread.
Click to expand...

What does that have to do with anything? Are you saying somehow douchebag guy is going to find this thread and somehow figure out it's the person he's dealing with? Even if he did, he still couldn't really use it in court, because there's no identifying information in it.
 
#89
jungleheat said:
Uhm, your advice is for her to actually SIGN SOMETHING that lays out written and concrete terms, which means she will owe this guy forever, definitively.
Click to expand...

Oh, please. :rolleyes: It is absolutely NOT my advice that she sign something that would "mean she will owe this guy forever." My advice is that she consult an attorney before proceeding further, and that IF she is able to negotiate an acceptable arrangement, use the services of that attorney to memorialize that deal.

As for the admissibility of this thread in litigation, it would be a pretty simple matter to authenticate it and establish the requisite foundation to make it admissible. It would be only slightly more difficult, but by no means impossible, to discover the existence of this thread in the first place.
 
#90
Subject for future research: Statute of Frauds.

What was the value of legal advice dispensed over internet forums, again?

Sounds to me like the OP's mind is made up, just hunting for justification.
 
#92
Another big red flag for me is this. If this band is on track for making it big, that suggests they have a management team with money behind it, and that includes lots of contacts in the music business. Anyone with that kind of clout has a stable of musicians they can draw from to fill any role in the band.

So, sure music industry types are always on the lookout for new talent, but this friend doesn't sound like someone with those kind of connections. Everyone here keeps saying a 20% lifetime finders fee is ludicrous, and it is kind of silly to ask for advice then ignore it when we all think it is at best a bad deal and at worst a scam.

The music industry is full of people that will take advantage of naive people with talent but are desperate for a break. Don't be one of the naive ones.
 
#93
soitainly said:
Another big red flag for me is this. If this band is on track for making it big, that suggests they have a management team with money behind it, and that includes lots of contacts in the music business. Anyone with that kind of clout has a stable of musicians they can draw from to fill any role in the band.

So, sure music industry types are always on the lookout for new talent, but this friend doesn't sound like someone with those kind of connections. Everyone here keeps saying a 20% lifetime finders fee is ludicrous, and it is kind of silly to ask for advice then ignore it when we all think it is at best a bad deal and at worst a scam.

The music industry is full of people that will take advantage of naive people with talent but are desperate for a break. Don't be one of the naive ones.
Click to expand...

Imagine being in a position where your own management could say, "yeah, if you ever **** up we have X and Y guys to replace you whenever." It'd make you think twice before you'd ever consider having an ego.
 
#96
You guys. In all srsness, uh, YEAH it sounds sketchy. But of COURSE I want to make tons of money and be famous, who doesn't? I posted about it here so that I could understand possible ways to call this guy out and maybe even still get the gig. I am far from gullible or naive. I am cynical and sick of b.s...but I also believe that there is a balancing act between turning down opportunity because the guy offering it to you is a sleaze, and getting totally screwed. As participants in the music industry, do we not participate in that act every day??
 
#97
hernameisrio said:
You guys. In all srsness, uh, YEAH it sounds sketchy. But of COURSE I want to make tons of money and be famous, who doesn't? I posted about it here so that I could understand possible ways to call this guy out and maybe even still get the gig. I am far from gullible or naive. I am cynical and sick of b.s...but I also believe that there is a balancing act between turning down opportunity because the guy offering it to you is a sleaze, and getting totally screwed. As participants in the music industry, do we not participate in that act every day??
Click to expand...

I think the basis of what everyone is saying is don't be so blinded by "wanting to make it" to miss the forest by being blinded by the trees, a crappy deal is a crappy deal , and this reeks of one
 
#98
Fer sure:
Call an entertainment lawyer (or two). Describe the situation and ask if it's worth even looking into. You can get a quick impression from a professional, for free, and see if it's worth spending $100 or so to look deeper into it.

Also:
I have the impression you don't know who the band is or how to contact them. That sounds fishy. If they really are big time in LA, there are LOTS of local female bass players they could choose from. Why would they be waiting for you when you don't even know each other?
 
#100
smeet said:
Why would they be waiting for you when you don't even know each other?
Click to expand...

This is the question of the day. Possible answers:

  • Her "friend" is highly respected by these people, and he has told them she is the bomb in every possible way. Best bass player ever. Great backup singer. Looks exactly right for the promo. Stage presence that kills. Whole package.
  • We are guided by the hand of fate, and fate has instructed this band that she is THE ONE
  • She would just be a name on a list, and all her friend can really get for her is, at most, an audition
  • They are going to get a lot of carrots, and bake them into a pie
There may be other possibilities I haven't thought of, but this is the most bizarre thread I've read through in a long time.


I hope we will be updated as results come in.
 

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