Seriously??!!

[electracoyote]

OP wanted a dependable drummer for this gig and future gigs.

Then when he heard the words, "If something better comes along, I might bail," OP should have said NO DEAL.

But he didn't. He entered a verbal agreement and promised a gig. That obligates him to behave ethically from that point forward.

What you're doing is saying the sub deserves to learn a hard lesson by encouraging OP to unethically break a promise and tarnish his own reputation. I don't understand that logic.

Before I let my reputation and soul take the hit, I'd pay the drummer off, learn the lesson, and never enter a shaky sub agreement again.

 

[DavC]

you owe nothing ... unless of course , he wants to play Half of said gig/date . ? he had ample notice ...
stuff happens ... get over it

 

[karl_em_all]

Then when he heard the words, "If something better comes along, I might bail," OP should have said NO DEAL.

But he didn't. He entered a verbal agreement and promised a gig. That obligates him to behave ethically from that point forward.

What you're doing is saying the sub deserves to learn a hard lesson by encouraging OP to unethically break a promise and tarnish his own reputation. I don't understand that logic.

Before I let my reputation and soul take the hit, I'd pay the drummer off, learn the lesson, and never enter a shaky sub agreement again.

We're talking about a guy who didn't fully commit to playing this gig and who was also given a two month advance notice to being let go. Asking for money a month later? The drummer's reputation is the one at stake here as far as I can tell.

 

[electracoyote]

I am fairly certain that no one will win this argument. Both sides have valid points and it's really between the OP and the sub. If I were the sub and was told I wasn't needed for a gig that I had spent *maybe* 3 days working on (no rehearsals that I read about), that would be the end of it. It was a favor for a friend. I spent hardly any time on it and it leaves me open to find other gigs. That being said, a professional would have expected to be paid. My drummer was on retainer for some larger acts. He got paid whether they rehearsed, played a show, or did nothing. This guy doesn't sound like a professional.

Well said.

It is very situational and depends on common interpretations of words like "friends" and "professional."

However, I'm of the firm belief that whether you are a weekend warrior hack playing for tips, or a touring superstar with mansions on both coasts, a promise is a promise, and your integrity and the value of your word depends on whether you honor your commitments. You can't let the bad behavior of others change that. I have made promises I wish I hadn't, and I have thought "maybe I can use some fancy logic to wiggle out of this." But I have learned that to do so tarnishes you, and you're better off just keeping your word, taking the high road, being the better man. And you get smarter in the process.

 

[electracoyote]

We're talking about a guy who didn't fully commit to playing this gig and who was also given a two month advance notice to being let go. Asking for money a month later? The drummers reputation is the one at stake here as far as I can tell.

Sub's reputation is already at stake. I doubt OP will work with him again.

So why should OP lower himself to that level and put his reputation in jeopardy? The fact is, whether he now regrets it or not, OP did enter into a verbal agreement and backed out on it.

I hear a thing like that, the rest seems to pale in comparison.

 

[David Jayne]

Then when he heard the words, "If something better comes along, I might bail," OP should have said NO DEAL.

But he didn't. He entered a verbal agreement and promised a gig. That obligates him to behave ethically from that point forward.

.

I don't get you, man. You're too black and white here. The OP kindly asked 'Pal' to release himself from the gig a few days after booking, and 'Pal' agreed with (apparently) no issues. 'Pal' never said "OK but I need to get paid anyway." We don't know for sure what would have happened in that case, but I think we can assume the OP would have compensated 'Pal.' Or maybe he would have kept 'Pal' on the gig. He says he would have kept him fulltime until 'Pal' said "But I'll bail for more money." Where's the lack of ethics on the part of the OP? I see an ethics problem with 'Pal' but not the OP. Why such a hard-core stance?

 

[Addison]

Here's my story, if anyone's interested...

I committed to a late summer's worth of fill-in gigs for a local band after their bass player suddenly quit... there were 8 or 9 total.

I rearranged a bunch of things, memorized about 50+ songs from their set list because they didn't allow charts, took time out of my life to go to 5 different rehearsals, and turned down a few other offers because I had already penciled in these other dates.

After two of the gigs, they called me and told me they got lucky found someone and wouldn't need me to do the rest of the gigs, as if it wasn't a big deal... well, I'm sorry but that doesn't fly with me.

I was pissed and told them that the new guy can wait... and if he can't, then they need to pay me for my time and for the trouble of rescheduling/cancelling other gigs.

We eventually settled on an agreement where I would do 4 of the gigs and they paid me out about half of what I would have made on the remaining 4 or 5 gigs.

Two of the people in the band thought I was the biggest a$$hole in the world for even suggesting this and two of the other band members stuck up for me... however you look at it, I did them a favor and spent a lot of time making sure the transition would be seamless.

They asked for a commitment and I gave it to them... commitments go both ways in these situations.

I'm honestly a nice guy for the most part, but I don't do charity work for other bands unless the gig is specifically for charity.

 

[Joe Nerve]

Just want to share this incident and maybe ask your thoughts about this. We recently change our Band Drummer and in the process, I asked this pal of mine if he can temporarily play with us for our upcoming gig this December. This talk happened in October, however, after a few days from initial offer, we finally found a drummer that's willing to commit to playing in the band on a regular basis, so I informed my pal about it.

Lo and behold, just this morning, he's asking me to pay him half of the gig payment he's suppose to get from one of our December gig because according to him, he blocked that date for us.....Seriously?!

Your thoughts.....

OK. I'm going to make believe I am the first person to respond to this. Which means this has all already been said, argued, argued again... and then gotten heated, and probably resolved.

YES! YOU SHOULD PAY HIM HALF! OR LET HIM PLAY THE GIG.

Too bad if you effed up on that one. He may have inconvenienced himself in many ways that are none of your business in order to accept this gig. He's entitled to either play the gig, or get half the pay. Suck it up.

I feel better now.

 

[electracoyote]

I don't get you, man. You're too black and white here. The OP kindly asked the 'Pal' to release himself from the gig a few days after booking, and the 'Pal' agreed with (apparently) no issues. The 'Pal' never said "OK but I need to get paid anyway." We don't know for sure what would have happened in that case, but I think we can assume the OP would have compensated 'Pal.' Where's the lack of ethics on the part of the OP? I see an ethics problem with 'Pal' ("I'll bail for more money") but not the OP.

Yeah, I'm trying not to speculate, so I'm sure my logic does appear black and white.

What I'm taking from this are the simple facts: OP promised a gig to a sub, agreeing to the verbal terms as outlined (right or wrong). OP took the gig away from the sub and gave it to someone else. The sub feels slighted and that he deserves recompense for a promise broken. Them's the facts. I've done a great job outlining reasons why I think the onus is on OP to do the right thing (because as you stated, we're not here to counsel the sub or fret over his reputation or consequences of his behavior), so I won't redundantly re-state them here.

Now, we can have long protracted conversations about the "maybe's" and we'd get absolutely nowhere.

 

[karl_em_all]

Here's my story, if anyone's interested...

I committed to a late summer's worth of fill-in gigs for a local band after their bass player suddenly quit... there were 8 or 9 total.

I rearranged a bunch of things, memorized about 50+ songs from their set list because they didn't allow charts, took time out of my life to go to 5 different rehearsals, and turned down a few other offers because I had already penciled in these other dates.

After two of the gigs, they called me and told me they got lucky found someone and wouldn't need me to do the rest of the gigs, as if it wasn't a big deal... well, I'm sorry but that doesn't fly with me.

I was pissed and told them that the new guy can wait... and if he can't, then they need to pay me for my time and for the trouble of rescheduling/cancelling other gigs.

We eventually settled on an agreement where I would do 4 of the gigs and they paid me out about half of what I would have made on the remaining 4 or 5 gigs.

Two of the people in the band thought I was the biggest a$$hole in the world for even suggesting this and two of the other band members stuck up for me... however you look at it, I did them a favor and spent a lot of time making sure the transition would be seamless.

I'm honestly a nice guy for the most part, but I don't do charity work for other bands unless the gig is specifically for charity.

You were totally in the right.

 

[David Jayne]

He may have inconvenienced himself in many ways that are none of your business in order to accept this gig.
.

In four days, for a gig two months out. That's a bit of a stretch, man.

 

[karl_em_all]

OP has decided to give the drummer what he asked for. I wouldn't in this case. Then again, if I were the sub in this case I wouldn't have asked to be paid.

 

[David Jayne]

Yeah, I'm trying not to speculate, so I'm sure my logic does appear black and white.

What I'm taking from this are the simple facts: OP promised a gig to a sub, agreeing to the verbal terms as outlined (right or wrong). OP took the gig away from the sub and gave it to someone else. The sub feels slighted and that he deserves recompense for a promise broken. Them's the facts. I've done a great job outlining reasons why I think the onus is on OP to do the right thing (because as you stated, we're not here to counsel the sub or fret over his reputation or consequences of his behavior), so I won't redundantly re-state them here.

Now, we can have long protracted conversations about the "maybe's" and we'd get absolutely nowhere.

Well, OK then. I don't agree but that's the way it goes.

 

[Joe Nerve]

In four days, for a gig two months out. That's a bit of a stretch, man.

That should have been stated in the OP. Sounded like he offered the gig weeks or months ago, and just pulled it. If what you say is true, I take it back. Anything more than 2 weeks in, I stand by what I said.

 

[Woofer]

That should have been stated in the OP. Sounded like he offered the gig weeks or months ago, and just pulled it. If what you say is true, I take it back. Anything more than 2 weeks in, I stand by what I said.

It was.

This talk happened in October, however, after a few days from initial offer, we finally found a drummer that's willing to commit to playing in the band on a regular basis, so I informed my pal about it.

Dude only had the gig for a couple of days, and had two months to find a new gig.

 

[Woofer]

Honestly, if you asked me to cover a gig two months away, and that you were going to continue looking for a permanent replacement in the meantime, I wouldn't even start learning the material for at least a month. OP's 'pal' sounds like kind of a douche to me.

 

[electracoyote]

Well, OK then. I don't agree but that's the way it goes.

We do agree that the sub drummer was a bit of an asshat when he accepted the gig. To agree to sub a gig and include a disclaimer like, "But if something better comes along I'm going to bail," is pretty immature and a poor reflection on his character. It tarnishes his reputation; I wouldn't hire him.

But that immediately brings two important points to mind:

1. OP DID HIRE HIM ANYWAY! OP said "Deal, gig on." Why? It really doesn't matter at that point; he made a promise and gave his word.

2. OP should not lower himself to the asshat drummer's level and risk similarly damaging his own reputation.

When it comes around full circle, OP can go into this long rambling defensive explanation about how the sub did this, did that, said this, said that, and do you know what's still going to happen? OP's reputation takes the hit anyway for the role he played.

It's just a piece of advice, but IMHO/IME it's not worth it to play that game. When you lower yourself to the level of others doing wrong, you are still doing wrong.

 

[christianbassguitar]

Artificial timeline logic.

This is another human being. You agreed to his terms. That puts you on the hook to honor them.

Maybe you thought you dodged a bullet and sub wouldn't care. You were wrong.

But for his peace....I'll pay him and cut him off my Friends list....

We do agree that the sub drummer was a bit of an asshat when he accepted the gig. To agree to sub a gig and include a disclaimer like, "But if something better comes along I'm going to bail," is pretty immature and a poor reflection on his character. It tarnishes his reputation; I wouldn't hire him.

But that immediately brings two important points to mind:

1. OP DID HIRE HIM ANYWAY! OP said "Deal, gig on." Why? It really doesn't matter at that point; he made a promise and gave his word.

2. OP should not lower himself to the asshat drummer's level and risk similarly damaging his own reputation.

When it comes around full circle, OP can go into this long rambling defensive explanation about how the sub did this, did that, said this, said that, and do you know what's still going to happen? OP's reputation takes the hit anyway for the role he played.

It's just a piece of advice, but IMHO/IME it's not worth it to play that game. When you lower yourself to the level of others doing wrong, you are still doing wrong.

Totally agree on this....

 

[electracoyote]

But for his peace....I'll pay him and cut him off my Friends list....


Totally agree on this....

It's a bitter pill man, I totally understand. I've had to swallow it a few times myself. 38 years of working with musicians, and I only count two musicians as real friends.

When money enters the picture, friendship usually takes a backseat. I know lots of great people in this industry, and I really enjoy their company and admire their talent. I stop just shy of calling most of them "friends."

Cleanse yourself, and move on that much wiser.

 

[40Hz]

For those of us who do more than a little subbing, terms need to be spelled out pretty clearly. My terms normally are, you book me and cancel, you pay me my hourly rate for the advertised length of the gig. Now, having said that, if the gig was a couple of months out and the cancellation came just a couple of days after the initial booking, I would be more inclined to let them out of the deal. This is business, being friends has very little to do with it...other than my friends understand better about why I expect to be paid.

True up to a point. But since so much business is conducted exclusively between friends in the music world, it's generally not a good idea to get so "businesslike" that you completely ignore the friendship element if you're not working through a manager or agent who is paid to be the heavy in situations like this one.

I also believe in tit for tat when it comes to contracts. If one party gets an escape clause. then the other party should also get one - and under the exact same terms. To say: I can back out of this any time if I choose to, and without penalty - but YOU still need to pay me if you cancel for any reason no matter what - doesn't scope out as being either equitable or "good business" to me.

One more reason to always get it in writing. Like my own attorney says: If you think it, better ink it!