Hey everyone. I've run in to a bit of a problem. I am in the process of selling a stingray to a guy in Norway. I plan on using USPS to ship it. He says he can insure it through his Musician Union before shipping. Here is my question. He wants me to declare a lesser value on the package because his import tax is like 25%. What risk or harm is there for me in declaring the package less value? He will be paying through paypal. Thanks in advance! Patrick
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Shipping a 'Ray to Norway???
- Thread starter kdsi44
- Start date
It's some form of fraud... probably a federal crime...
But we have all done it before and the risk is small....
But we have all done it before and the risk is small....
It is a form of fraud. But not a federal one. It's fraud commited in Norway. No one will catch it.
The USPS may not accept the package because it is too large. Check with your local PO before dragging the package there. I tried to send a bass to Spain and even though the Web site said the package was within specs and gave me a price for postage, the lady at the Post Office said the package was too large and they couldn't accept it. I had to take it to UPS.
Also, with Customs Value, you may end up getting a bill for the full value of they find out you short-changed them. But most likely the buyer in Norway will get all the grief from Customs.
Also, with Customs Value, you may end up getting a bill for the full value of they find out you short-changed them. But most likely the buyer in Norway will get all the grief from Customs.
I am always relieved when there are people in the US who are willing to trade internationally AT ALL! regardless of any taxes at all.
I don't quite understand the reluctance of a lot of people to do this. It is the buyer who faces all the fuss at customs etc.
Is international shipping really that complicated?
The guy in Europe will face any trouble if any problems should surface at all.
I myself live in Luxemburg, Europe and tried to do the same.
Fact is, that there are rarely peopel at Customs who know the real value of music instruments, not even of used instruments.
Essentially, their main concern is that the package contains the actual merchandise described on the invoice.
A lot of trouble and delay at customs can be prevented by including an invoice (incl. the phone number of the receiver on the OUTSIDE of the package, stating the sale price (or whatever approx. figure) excl. shipping costs (or the receiver will have to pay taxes on the shipping costs too).
So often they don't even bother to open the package.
I don't quite understand the reluctance of a lot of people to do this. It is the buyer who faces all the fuss at customs etc.
Is international shipping really that complicated?
The guy in Europe will face any trouble if any problems should surface at all.
I myself live in Luxemburg, Europe and tried to do the same.
Fact is, that there are rarely peopel at Customs who know the real value of music instruments, not even of used instruments.
Essentially, their main concern is that the package contains the actual merchandise described on the invoice.
A lot of trouble and delay at customs can be prevented by including an invoice (incl. the phone number of the receiver on the OUTSIDE of the package, stating the sale price (or whatever approx. figure) excl. shipping costs (or the receiver will have to pay taxes on the shipping costs too).
So often they don't even bother to open the package.
I bought a Kydd bass a few years ago from someone in the US who shipped it to Israel with no problem. He declared a lower value, even went to the notary public (is that right?) to get it officially done. This solved any possible problem on my side. I ended up paying tax for the value he declared. Shipping was very easy by FedEx.
My policy is to not undeclare a package, because if you have to make an insurance claim, you could get screwed out of some $$$.
I've shipped multiple times overseas, including England, Sweden, and Germany. In fact I'm sending off some pedals to Israel right now.
International shipping is NOT a big deal, just a few extra forms and more expensive shipping. Just make sure you conform to the box size limits of wherever it is going.
I've shipped multiple times overseas, including England, Sweden, and Germany. In fact I'm sending off some pedals to Israel right now.
International shipping is NOT a big deal, just a few extra forms and more expensive shipping. Just make sure you conform to the box size limits of wherever it is going.
If he doesn't care about the case you could take the neck off it and ship it in separate boxes and list it as parts. Would also cut down on the shipping expense considerably.
I sent my Blackbird to Norway to Rune and I did it for him. I put epi on it. Just put olp or something.
There is no harm to you; if you lower the declared value, he pays less taxes. Some guys will even go as far as asking you declare it a "gift"...and they pay no taxes at all
...But if it gets damaged or lost or whatever, his bass is worth the declared value..if it's a gift....he's screwed.
...But if it gets damaged or lost or whatever, his bass is worth the declared value..if it's a gift....he's screwed.
Hi, kdsi44.
You shouldn't have any problems for that.
As a fellow Scandinavian I'll echo that. It's not the time of ignorance anymore, the wonderful world of computers and internet has made the price range inquiries a matter of a simple database search, takes about 2 minutes. The key is to not give the reason for the search. I'd say 20% off might be acceptable.
A friend of mine tried that kind of trick with customs. The plan was executed rather poorly so allthough the low,low price was legal and documented in the inheritance papers, those papers weren't there with the customs papers. The MC in question stayed in the customs area while the paperwork was taken care of (at great expence). With my advice the original price was pumped up considerably when it was time to pay the registration tax. Only to avoid any problems and that worked well.
I'm 100% sure that the buyer in Norway knows it all and doesn't try to suggest anything "stupid".
Just my 0.02
Sam
You shouldn't have any problems for that.
As a fellow Scandinavian I'll echo that. It's not the time of ignorance anymore, the wonderful world of computers and internet has made the price range inquiries a matter of a simple database search, takes about 2 minutes. The key is to not give the reason for the search. I'd say 20% off might be acceptable.
A friend of mine tried that kind of trick with customs. The plan was executed rather poorly so allthough the low,low price was legal and documented in the inheritance papers, those papers weren't there with the customs papers. The MC in question stayed in the customs area while the paperwork was taken care of (at great expence). With my advice the original price was pumped up considerably when it was time to pay the registration tax. Only to avoid any problems and that worked well.
I'm 100% sure that the buyer in Norway knows it all and doesn't try to suggest anything "stupid".
Just my 0.02
Sam
None at customs in Norway will have a clue of used musical instrument prices. I've received numbers of US packages with either a dramatically reduced "custom" price or marked "gift". No hassle at all.
Do my fellow norwegian this favor, won't cause you any trouble, I'm sure.
Unless it's an ethical issue for you. Cause, obviously, it's cheating.
Do my fellow norwegian this favor, won't cause you any trouble, I'm sure.
Unless it's an ethical issue for you. Cause, obviously, it's cheating.
In ads I have posted for accessories for sale, I have noted
usually that I will ship internationally at prevailing shipping cost,
but that I won't make false value declarations, so
please don't ask. ( I haven't been in the position of shipping a
bass though, just other gear.)
That avoids the dilemma of whether ripping off the
Norwegian government is ethical. Not that they are
concerned about them ripping you off or anything.
Of course, as an Icelander, a bottle of authentic Akvavit
shipped back to me might serve to convince me we were all
comrades-in-arms, and everything will be just rosy.
usually that I will ship internationally at prevailing shipping cost,
but that I won't make false value declarations, so
please don't ask. ( I haven't been in the position of shipping a
bass though, just other gear.)
That avoids the dilemma of whether ripping off the
Norwegian government is ethical. Not that they are
concerned about them ripping you off or anything.
Of course, as an Icelander, a bottle of authentic Akvavit
shipped back to me might serve to convince me we were all
comrades-in-arms, and everything will be just rosy.
I just shipped a StingRay to France that was purchased through an eBay auction. Priority Mail International will only insure up to 650 USD, and the usual limit for a package is 108" length + girth, but for other destinations, different limitations will apply.
Under no circumstances will I ever attempt to defraud customs officials. The package is worth what it is worth (the actual purchase price), and that's that. I always state this right up front in my auctions so as to defer any awkwardness later.
Just for reference, it cost about 115 USD to ship the bass, including insurance. I used the box that Warwick shipped my custom Corvette Pro in, so it worked out as far as dimensions were concerned. I even had enough space to pad all six sides of the OHSC with styrofoam.
Under no circumstances will I ever attempt to defraud customs officials. The package is worth what it is worth (the actual purchase price), and that's that. I always state this right up front in my auctions so as to defer any awkwardness later.
Just for reference, it cost about 115 USD to ship the bass, including insurance. I used the box that Warwick shipped my custom Corvette Pro in, so it worked out as far as dimensions were concerned. I even had enough space to pad all six sides of the OHSC with styrofoam.
Ethical question? The only ethichal question here, is the norwegian tax-system, that makes the poor people poorer and the rich people richer.
The import tax is made to help the norwegian industry/farmers etc to compete with imported less expensive goods/food. But there are no Stingrays made in Norway. A Ray or a Fender will be twice the price in Norway than in the US.
So as a poor amateur musician, this is no ethical dilemma for me at all.
The import tax is made to help the norwegian industry/farmers etc to compete with imported less expensive goods/food. But there are no Stingrays made in Norway. A Ray or a Fender will be twice the price in Norway than in the US.
So as a poor amateur musician, this is no ethical dilemma for me at all.
I have sold many basses to buyers in Europe. I now put in my auctions that I will declare the full value, and that I will not help defraud governments with my sales.
Before I did that, virtually every EU buyer would ask for some type of discount on customs.
Before I did that, virtually every EU buyer would ask for some type of discount on customs.
We have to pay VAT here in the UK,at 17.5% the value of the instrument,so you can see why your asked to say it's value is less then it really is by the buyer,THEN we have Import Duty to pay also,and if that's not enough, we get stung for shipping!!!!from the customs in the UK to our home,so your looking at quite a whack of £'s by the time the bass get's to you!!but as far as your concened it's not your problem,and as long as you get your sale price that's the end of it for you once it leaves your home,so unless we really want the instrument believe me it's not going to be a cheap deal!!
you can always ship the package as a gift... it won't have any customs fee or taxes on it... I live in sweden and have had 2 basses sent to me as gifts.... no customs fee or tax
No risk for your concern whatsoever, but the buyer runs a risk of having to pay the tax if the customs catch him. I am not sure how his insurance will come to effect if the bass gets damaged or lost in the shipping, but normally the buyer will only get the refund equal to the declared price if it gets lost..
