Should the Dodgers be given the trophy?

[Mushroo]

That's sad to me, to think Alex Cora might go down in history alongside the likes of Pete Rose. I've never met Cora but generally got the sense he's well respected as a human being by the players and so forth.

What's surprising to me is that apparently three of Cora's own players ratted him out. That flies in the face of what I know about "clubhouse chemistry." Possibly a case of, the players want to win on their own merits, and don't want the asterisk next to their name in the history books.

 

[4StringAxe]

That's sad to me, to think Alex Cora might go down in history alongside the likes of Pete Rose. I've never met Cora but generally got the sense he's well respected as a human being by the players and so forth.

What's surprising to me is that apparently three of Cora's own players ratted him out. That flies in the face of what I know about "clubhouse chemistry." Possibly a case of, the players want to win on their own merits, and don't want the asterisk next to their name in the history books.

Not to mention, how did a general manager and a head coach let a bench coach take this kind of control of a clubhouse?
While I think he's guilty, I think he's being fed to the wolves so others can save face.
His troubles in Boston are of his own making though apparently

 

[4StringAxe]

Jokes for the demented.
The Houston Asterisks.

 

[Mushroo]

Not to mention, how did a general manager and a head coach let a bench coach take this kind of control of a clubhouse?

I think I can shed some light on that topic, based on my informal observations as a Bostonian.

A lot of Alex Cora's power and influence in the game, at such a young age, comes from the fact he is fluently bi-lingual.

If I had to take a wild guess (I don't know this for a fact) I would speculate that Hinch is not fluent in Spanish, and that's why Cora took on the primary role of communicating the signs to the players in the dugout.

 

[slobake]

For us baseball fans this is a serious matter. But certainly not life changing. We may have some disagreement about this and that is okay. The facts here are not going to change day to day life or any of us.

 

[4StringAxe]

I think I can shed some light on that topic, based on my informal observations as a Bostonian.

A lot of Alex Cora's power and influence in the game, at such a young age, comes from the fact he is fluently bi-lingual.

That does make a lot sense.
Especially to young players who aren't bi-lingual.
Man this sucks. I'm 51. I waited a long time to see the Sox win a series. Was more than rewarded for it with 2004 and the others.
But this hurts.
Not to mention the crap I'm going to take from my Yankee fan friends.
Those jerks. Lol.

 

[4StringAxe]

For us baseball fans this is a serious matter. But certainly not life changing. We may have some disagreement about this and that is okay. The facts here are not going to change day to day life or any of us.

Yeah, my paycheck didn't change after the Sox won the series.

 

[two fingers]

I agree that others may be cheating. The problem with this logic is that we could do anything we want and say it is okay because others can't prove they are not doing the same thing as us. That would not work in society as a whole.

I'm not saying that. What I AM saying is that they should investigate. They should shut up until the investigation is over. And then they should punish EVERYONE who has cheated using technology to steal signs (if that's going to be illegal).

Here's another point. Last year Red Sox pitchers made millions. Catchers? About half a million each. Why the heck are CATCHERS responsible for signs anyway???? Why don't the dang PITCHERS research the batters. Then THEY can decide what pitch is next. Let THEM wear arm bands with batter stats on them. Then we wouldn't even HAVE this stupid mess. I was a catcher briefly in little league. It's a truly weird tradition. I would watch the coach for signs. Then the pitcher would watch me. Why doesn't the dang pitcher just watch the coach??? Why doesn't the PITCHER research batter stats and just pitch the best pitch that is next? Total side argument. Sorry.

Anyway..... It seems we only care to punish the champs. They are all doing SOME form of signal stealing using technology. Never mins, as others have said, ace pitchers got shut down during away games when the cheaters couldn't use their technology. So, it may not have affected the games anyway. But before laying down huge fines and punishments on the champs only, find out how many teams were really doing it all along. Then either punish them all, or start over enforcing the rules. But punishing the champs only is stupid, in my view.

And I'm not biased. I love the Sox. And I think Alex Cora is a baseball genius (cheating not withstanding). But Cora gets what he gets. I'm fine with his taking his lumps as long as EVERYONE who cheated during those two seasons takes the same lumps.

 

[4StringAxe]

If one goes down, they all go down.
No hiding behind a sacrificial lamb.

 

[4StringAxe]

If I had bought a ticket, I'd want my money back.
Good thing I got my Sox t-shirt before all this came out.

 

[JKos]

Why don't the dang PITCHERS research the batters. Then THEY can decide what pitch is next.

Because, as a catcher, knowing what pitch is coming is very important. If the pitcher makes the decision, they would have to relay that decision to the catcher. The batter is looking right at the pitcher, so that doesn't work out to well.

- John

 

[4StringAxe]

The catcher does need to know the general location of the pitch. Especially at that level.

 

[two fingers]

Because, as a catcher, knowing what pitch is coming is very important. If the pitcher makes the decision, they would have to relay that decision to the catcher. The batter is looking right at the pitcher, so that doesn't work out to well.

- John

The catcher does need to know the general location of the pitch. Especially at the level.

I "kinda" see your point... but not really. Dirt balls get stopped by MLB catchers all the time. High balls get snatched by catchers all the time. Wild pitches get caught all the time. In fact, it's a pretty rare, crazy pitch that gets by an MLB catcher. Heck, last year the Sox pitchers were all over the place. And it's not like Leon and Vasquez were constantly throwing their helmets off and heading for the backstop. They are trained to follow the ball. And that's what they'll do even if they don't know what's coming. I would think they would get used to it in a matter of weeks if a team decided that signals were no longer going to be used. If you're a pitcher in the majors, you make a zillion dollars a minute. Do your homework and learn the batters. Pitch your game. Pull the rug out from under the whole signal stealing thing.

 

[Bassball Fever]

I "kinda" see your point... but not really. Dirt balls get stopped by MLB catchers all the time. High balls get snatched by catchers all the time. Wild pitches get caught all the time. In fact, it's a pretty rare, crazy pitch that gets by an MLB catcher. Heck, last year the Sox pitchers were all over the place. And it's not like Leon and Vasquez were constantly throwing their helmets off and heading for the backstop. They are trained to follow the ball. And that's what they'll do even if they don't know what's coming. I would think they would get used to it in a matter of weeks if a team decided that signals were no longer going to be used. If you're a pitcher in the majors, you make a zillion dollars a minute. Do your homework and learn the batters. Pitch your game. Pull the rug out from under the whole signal stealing thing.

I disagree. Not knowing which pitch is coming would make it very difficult to catch the ball. If you know a slider is coming, you know how it's going to break. If you don't know if it's a fastball or slider until it breaks or doesn't, then you will not be able to get your glove in front of it reliably.

 

[two fingers]

I disagree. Not knowing which pitch is coming would make it very difficult to catch the ball. If you know a slider is coming, you know how it's going to break. If you don't know if it's a fastball or slider until it breaks or doesn't, then you will not be able to get your glove in front of it reliably.

So how do they catch 99.99% of missed pitches? Heck, a few dozen times per game last year, the signal would be for low an out and it would be high. Or the signal would be for a fastball and it would hit the dirt. And the ball not going in the glove was still rare. I don't think it would matter as much as you think it would.

 

[4StringAxe]

I "kinda" see your point... but not really. Dirt balls get stopped by MLB catchers all the time. High balls get snatched by catchers all the time. Wild pitches get caught all the time. In fact, it's a pretty rare, crazy pitch that gets by an MLB catcher. Heck, last year the Sox pitchers were all over the place. And it's not like Leon and Vasquez were constantly throwing their helmets off and heading for the backstop. They are trained to follow the ball. And that's what they'll do even if they don't know what's coming. I would think they would get used to it in a matter of weeks if a team decided that signals were no longer going to be used. If you're a pitcher in the majors, you make a zillion dollars a minute. Do your homework and learn the batters. Pitch your game. Pull the rug out from under the whole signal stealing thing.

Wakefield must have been loads of fun to catch for.

 

[Bassball Fever]

So how do they catch 99.99% of missed pitches? Heck, a few dozen times per game last year, the signal would be for low an out and it would be high. Or the signal would be for a fastball and it would hit the dirt. And the ball not going in the glove was still rare. I don't think it would matter as much as you think it would.

Location is one thing, but if you don't know what pitch is coming, there is no chance. A strike right down the middle can be hard to catch if you are expecting fastball and get a slider. If you know what pitch is coming, it is much easier to track.

 

[Mushroo]

@JKos has the correct answer, of course.

I will add, as additional information, I have seen umpires call a pitch a "ball" even though it was in the strike zone, because the catcher was expecting a different pitch and then had to move his glove. There is a higher probability that the ump will call a "strike" if the catcher "frames" the pitch by setting up their mitt in the strike zone, and then the pitcher accurately hits that target.

 

[Clark Dark]

Coaches, assistant coaches and a manager ????
They weren't the ones standing at the plate benefitting from the signal stealing. There's enough shame for every player on both those teams. Let em keep the trophy, we all now know what was happening.

 

[slobake]

2017*