Should we separate forums into sub-forums?

[WesW]

...edit... as a musician aren't we all supposed to be open-minded and embrace other musicians? At least that is what I like to think a true musician is.

Sorry this is so long.

Melissa

Well said.
+1

 

[Marlat]

I know that not everyone will agree about the necessity of an ERB sub forum or forum, but as a musician aren't we all supposed to be open-minded and embrace other musicians? At least that is what I like to think a true musician is.

I think a few people's issue with the idea of separate forums was that it is the antithesis of open minded and embracing. It creates division where none is necessary. Rather than continuing to work towards "bridging" the divide between those who accept EUBs and ERBs in the respective DB and BG forums, it is like giving up and running off to "play" somewhere else.

I think working towards uniting rather than dividing is preferable. The question is whether the proposals actually achieve this.

 

[LajoieT]

...Rather than continuing to work towards "bridging" the divide between those who accept EUBs and ERBs in the respective DB and BG forums, it is like giving up and running off to "play" somewhere else.

I think working towards uniting rather than dividing is preferable. The question is whether the proposals actually achieve this.

Well said. I feel for the ERB players having to answer these closed minded opinions ALL the time. It really must get old VERY quickly. But dividing the forum IMO will only perpetuate the issue as those with the narrow minds might feel that it's OK to bash ERB's in the non ERB forum (kinda like we make snide coments about {and often don't even speak the word} guitars and drums {when xush isn't looking} because their players aren't around for the most part). I for one when I first saw a 7 string while visiting a music store "in the big city" thought "WOW, F*ing COOL!!!" (Web search the next day turned up the Conklin & Lord Only sites and now I'm here on TB) so I can't really relate to the ERB bashers since I can't feel where they're coming from. But I truely feel that if the forum is split up, the issue will linger and simmer, and in the end those curious will venture into the ERB forum and make the same insulting posts (even if they don't necessarily mean to be insulting.)

 

[john turner]

I think a few people's issue with the idea of separate forums was that it is the antithesis of open minded and embracing. It creates division where none is necessary.

well, i played 4 string for 8+ years and then 7+ strings exclusively for another 11+ years, and in my experience there is a valid reason, even a necessity for "division", for the reasons that i've elaborated on earlier.

what experience forms your opinion? just curious, trying to gauge where you're coming from.

 

[john turner]

But I truely feel that if the forum is split up, the issue will linger and simmer, and in the end those curious will venture into the ERB forum and make the same insulting posts (even if they don't necessarily mean to be insulting.)

you make good points, but remember, the most important thing is not who trolls, but who is being served. every erb'er that i've talked to, almost unanimously, has been in support of a seperate forum here. if the addition of another basses-level or amps-level "erb discussion" forum brings more people to the site, people who now feel unwelcome because of their own history here, then the addition has done much to "unite".

furthermore, i remember what it was like before there were forum divisions. even bass guitar and double bass were together, all in one single forum. back in those days, things like effects were often denegrated by those members who didn't use them. with the addition of an effects forum, that kind of response grew much rarer, for the simple fact that postings in the effects forum were expected to be on a certain topic, and those that didn't wish to participate didn't even visit.

no forum designations are going to stop the guitar.com-type intentional trolls, but they will limit the unintentional trolling/confrontations between adherents to a style/instrument/effect/whatever and those who don't.

 

[Marlat]

well, i played 4 string for 8+ years and then 7+ strings exclusively for another 11+ years, and in my experience there is a valid reason, even a necessity for "division", for the reasons that i've elaborated on earlier.

what experience forms your opinion? just curious, trying to gauge where you're coming from.

Given what we are talking about is adding a bass guitar forum to this site, I would think the only relevant experience is here, on TB and specifically what is happening now with regard to the treatment of ERBS.

Whilst your life may be filled with many sad tales of abuse at the hands of detractors of your instrument that isnt really relevant to a discussion about whats happening at TB here and now. Certainly no more than my experience as "the little black boy" in primary school is to my current situation.

I have no doubt that in the past, ERB'rs may have been persecuted on TB because of their instrument choice, however IMO the best way to stamp out this kind of thing is by keeping the discussions together, and not creating some illusory divide between basses and ERBs. My main bass is a 6 string, so its not like I am a "four string forever" kinda guy.

It appears to me that the treatment of ERB players in the basses forum right now, is no worse than the users of any other instrument in that forum (in fact, it is a hell of a lot better than users of Wishbasses or Behringer amps seem to cop - perhaps we should have a separate forum for them?). If ERB users don't feel comportable in TB based on past experience, I would polititely suggest that they give it another try and if they still don't feel comfortable, then perhaps its something they need to get over and not something that is a problem with TB.

I accept that you differ in your opinion on this. The bottom line is reading all the threads that I do in TB and the basses forums etc, I honestly can't say I have seen the need to introduce the division of a separate category for ERBs. Certainly there need appears no different to any other slightly marginalised group - Hoppus bass users, Fodera users etc. Clearly you see things differently, thats fine - ultimately what happens is what happens, but its good to be able to discuss things!

FWIW I also think the EUB issue could be dealt with by labelling the DB forums as including EUB and also have a zero tolerance policy for bashing. - This to me indicates that TB is a "better" community because it will not tolerate abuse of others choice of intrument, whether it be from Mark Latimour, John Turner, Ed Fuqua or Joe Newbie!

 

[john turner]

Given what we are talking about is adding a bass guitar forum to this site, I would think the only relevant experience is here, on TB and specifically what is happening now with regard to the treatment of ERBS.

well, considering one of the points of this site is to support a community which is growing, experience outside the site with potential members is very relevant to this discussion. we are not a closed-gate forum here, we are expected to grow with the addition of new folks. i interract with a good number of folks outside the site, including a lot of erb'ers. their questions and concerns about the site are directly relevant.

Whilst your life may be filled with many sad tales of abuse at the hands of detractors of your instrument that isnt really relevant to a discussion about whats happening at TB here and now. Certainly no more than my experience as "the little black boy" in primary school is to my current situation.

well, whatever "little black boy" means, i am not advocating this new forum for me. i've dealt with all my own issues on the topic - i've been parodied, made fun of with a website dedicated to doing so (good ole bunnybass), insulted and even threatened because of my instrument choices, and i've learned how to deal with that for the most part. on top of that, i've established all the professional connections i personally need to maintain my instruments, gear, and other necessities. i don't need a special forum to serve me, i can just make a call. not trying to show off, by any means, but just stating a fact - this isn't for me to benefit from, so much is it a place for me to share, along with many other folks in the same situation, folks who've gone through it and can offer support and knowledge. a large number of those folks are not interested in participating here now for the very reasons that i've earlier mentioned

as for past experience not being relevant to the discussion, i'm sorry mark, but that's just seems like a bogus attempt to force the playing field to be level artificially, and it's doomed to fail, even taken on face value. even if we were to assume that the only relevant factor to this discussion is today's posts or this weeks posts or whatever arbitrary date of delineation, the fact remains i have a much more active and much more in depth experience with what goes on in basses, at least, due to the fact that i am one of the mods of that forum, and have to deal with the dirt, perhaps even before you get a chance to see it. my experience not only bears out my current opinion, but actually changed my own opinion (there is an earlier thread in the suggestion box suggesting the same thing as now, that at the time i was vehemently opposed to, but my opinion has come full circle, based on the reasons that i've elaborated on repeatedly) .

furthermore, i have brought members to the site who i've met in real life, folks who've seen me play or who i've met over the years. my experience dealing with people on this site and interracting with folks in real life, especially those who pursue the same instrumental choices i do, all points in generally the same way. they all tend to express the same concerns to me about this site - "how will i be served in a hassle/insult free environment?"

I have no doubt that in the past, ERB'rs may have been persecuted on TB because of their instrument choice, however IMO the best way to stamp out this kind of thing is by keeping the discussions together, and not creating some illusory divide between basses and ERBs. My main bass is a 6 string, so its not like I am a "four string forever" kinda guy.

It appears to me that the treatment of ERB players in the basses forum right now, is no worse than the users of any other instrument in that forum (in fact, it is a hell of a lot better than users of Wishbasses or Behringer amps seem to cop - perhaps we should have a separate forum for them?). If ERB users don't feel comportable in TB based on past experience, I would polititely suggest that they give it another try and if they still don't feel comfortable, then perhaps its something they need to get over and not something that is a problem with TB.

well, i can say that while i respect your opinions on the current state of affairs in basses, i also respectfully disagree, based on over 4 years of dealing with these kinds of posts - they have not changed in frequency, nor in vitriol. there are precious few threads, even from this year or the past few months, dealing with erbs that are not replete with at least a few pointless insults. add to that the attempt on the part of many folks who are erb players to share different playing styles and approaches that are "outside the box" so to speak, and you get folks getting chased away quite often.

don't believe me? well, i don't know what else to say, other than my mailbox is full of pm's and emails from folks asking me why "different opinions offered in a disrespectful tone are tolerated?" here. by the time i explain that those disrespectful opinions have been dealt with, because i am usually pretty hard on folks who offer them, those particular erb'ers, again in my experience, tend to leave the site, which sort of defeats the purpose. i'm even talking about pros who get taken to task for their instrument choice by, basically, punks who don't even know better. clean up on that kind of crap is too late, and the site loses someone who could really share real experience and knowledge.

look at the date in the basses forum of my mod announcement about the zero-tolerance for erb-bashing. that's not that long ago, and it was posted out of necessity.

i don't mean this to be harsh, but i don't think that you are not in a position to suggest that anyone "gets over" their experiences when you have not shared them. i'm sorry, but that's just not right.

I accept that you differ in your opinion on this. The bottom line is reading all the threads that I do in TB and the basses forums etc, I honestly can't say I have seen the need to introduce the division of a separate category for ERBs.

and i can honestly say that reading and moderating the threads here, along with my participating in other groups of folks with like interests, that such a forum is in fact quite necessary.

Certainly there need appears no different to any other slightly marginalised group - Hoppus bass users, Fodera users etc. Clearly you see things differently, thats fine - ultimately what happens is what happens, but its good to be able to discuss things!

again, you have a segment of the population that does not feel welcome, not necessarily because of the site itself, but because of the active participants. when someone makes an insulting or borderline comment, sometimes even the community at large ignores it, or gives it the equivalent of a chuckle. that makes folks feel unwelcome as much as, if not more than, the original derrogatory comment.

lastly, a comparison of folks who often have to get whole new rigs, find new outlets for strings and learn whole new styles of playing and fitting into an ensemble due to their instrument choice to folks who buy a mark hoppus bass seems to be the product of ignorance, but i know you're not an ignorant person, so i have to wonder what motivates such a trivialisation. it's not just the instrument itself but the whole approach and manner of playing that gets trivialised or insulted by folks, and it makes the environment truly hostile to folks who just want to share.

 

[john turner]

Did we ever establish what an ERB consists of? Is is >=7 strings? Assuming it is 7+ strings, are there even enough users to justify a seperate forum?

i only mentioned greater than 7 strings because that's where my experience lies. folks with low C#'s on their 4 strings, or even folks just having questions about it, would be more than welcome to such a forum, i would imagine.

as for "would there be enough?", i can almost guarantee that there would be. you'd be surprised at how many folks are trying to press the boundaries now. with a forum here at talkbass dedicated to the instrument (and with talkbass being pretty much the go-to site as far as bass is concerned) i think folks will be amazed at the number of new folks participating in the forum.

I have done some thread searching, and stand firm that ERB'ers have suffered nothing that all the other "divisions" here suffer at some point.

That said, JT has indeed long labored at both this site and in the name of ERB in gen'l, so I have to put some faith in what he says. If they (JT and the other ERB'ers that have chimed in) think it would be beneficial mayhaps it should be considered?

Oh yeah, bunnybass was not dedicated to knocking you though John, just that one little section! I hung on BB before I hung here, what a great site. Mimi rox!

yeah, i love bunny bass too, that was great fun, and yeah mimi and john both were pretty cool. what i meant, though that there was a substantial section there dedicated to lil'ole me.

 

[cgworkman]

Music and their 7+ basses are everything to some people. Just because its trivial to you doesnt mean its trivial to everyone.

Oops. Wrong again.

Music and basses are not trivial in the slightest. The vehement discussion of whether or not to segregate this forum even more IS trivial. If the forum is split: Great. If it's not: That's great too. THAT is what's trivial.

You're being obtuse. From some of your postings, it's clear you are not an idiot - so don't act like one by adding semantics to MY postings.

I will say this about SOME ERB: Some of you look down on the "4" string players in the same sense that some "4" string players look down on you. What's the difference??

 

[Marlat]

JT

The points been made with regard to your past experience. Our opinions differ on how relevant it is to the current situation at TB. There is no need to discuss it further.

The only issue I willl correct you on is that I am not trivialising the issues with ERBs. One of your chief arguments all along has been that ERB players are "hassled" because of their choice of instrument. Well, I have not seen them hassled recently any more than the following groups of owners (again, not saying in the past they havent copped more flack):

Behringer owners
Mark Hoppus owners
Ibanez owners
Wishnevsky bass owners
Fodera owners
the Sadowsky brand etc

I have no doubt that there are differences in playing style, amps etc that are needed for ERBs and EUBs, however we have separate forums to post those questions in (AMPS, TECHNIQUE etc). Therefore it appears that only reason that a separate ERB forum is actually desirable is to separate the discussion from the potential "hassles", however following that logic, we should also separte the other groups who get hassled as well.

FWIW TB has a reputation amoung other forums as being inhabited by gear snobs and looking down on cheap gear. Whether deserved or not, wouldn't a more pressing issue in forums separation be to address this? Perhaps we should have a <$1000 basses forum and a >$1000 forum, again, to stop those with cheap gear feeling uncomfortable here at TB?

An alternative would be to say that such a separate forum would attract ERB players from far and wide to participate in TB (thus bringing more members the community). However I fear that if all the ERB issues can be discussed in a single forum, then these new members will not really participate in the community, but will stay in their deducated forum and thus other members of the community will miss out on the potential shared knowledge. For example, a search in AMPS would not reveal all the good posts in the ERB forum about amps etc.

 

[john turner]

I've seen this. Comments like, and I quote, "4 stringers can't see the future", extreme defensiveness and even personal attacks when someone suggests the fact, as borne per this thread, that there's prejudice against the look/etc of 6/7/8/9 string basses that someone may not want to incur at an audition for a traditional act, etc.

They definitely give at least as good as they get if not give in the first place with a general air of superiority, which is arguably warranted in some ways (I think most ERBers have a far greater grasp of theory and some techniques than the average 4-stringer, and that deserves respect whether or not said techniques have any bearing on the role of bass in most music), but why provoke the hasslers even if in self-defense?

The concept of "ignore them and they'll go away" isn't often practiced by some ERBers. I'm sure they mean well, that maybe by debunking a hassler the hassler might see the light, but I'm just saying it takes two to tango and some ERBers are often very eager to tango.

Or to use a different group as an example, anyone can respect someone saying "I like my Behringer and that's all I could spend" but someone insisting "Behringer didn't completely rip off Ashdown's design" is simply asking for it.

well, i can identify with what you have added smash, but i must say that everytime i've seen the comments like "4 stringers can't see the future" or something of that nature, they have been in direct response to attacks or insinuations. it's all a matter of perceptions. such insinuations from folks might seem like common sense to non-erb'ers, but erb'ers find them to be, generally, annoying in their frequency, and insulting in their implication of the erb'er's ignorance of reality.

i have an anecdote i like to relay. for the 7 years that i've had my doubleneck, there are 3 main questions that _everyone_ and i mean everyone always asks, whether on the net, or in person. "how much does that weigh?", "how much did that cost?" and "who is your chiropractor?". none of these questions have any thought towards real learning or understanding (like a question like "what do you do on that thing?" would) but rather just treat it the same way as a 2 headed cat in a freak show. even when i tell folks what's up with it, and we start talking, it's very very rare that anyone thinks to ask why i had it made, or why i designed it a certain way, or what my uses of it are.

outside of the guys who've ordered erbs and who know me, there's only two guys who've talked to me about it for its use and its application as opposed to its seeming "freakishness". stanley clarke and chuck rainey. i had a good conversation about stuff with chuck, in fact, and he acted genuinely interested in what i had to say, which was a real honor.

oh, yeah, then there's micheal manring, who picked it up and played it better than i can heh. but he's totally one of a kind and much more of a trailblazer and frontier-expander than i am.

my point? we learn here from witnessing discussions as well as participating in discussions. if folks had the opportunity to witness discussions with a lot of erb folks who were talking about their ideas and such with each other, folks would get as much as, if not more of, a feel and a knowledge of the instrument as they would by asking the usual "do you wish you played guitar" or "what's the use? i can't ever see something like that being useful." that's another benefit that an erb forum would facilitate. they would gain an understanding and a respect naturally when they see for themselves what erb'ers are all about, and that would help curb the more obvious and (unintentionally) insulting questions and insinuations.

 

[john turner]

The only issue I willl correct you on is that I am not trivialising the issues with ERBs. One of your chief arguments all along has been that ERB players are "hassled" because of their choice of instrument. Well, I have not seen them hassled recently any more than the following groups of owners (again, not saying in the past they havent copped more flack):

Behringer owners
Mark Hoppus owners
Ibanez owners
Wishnevsky bass owners
Fodera owners
the Sadowsky brand etc

I have no doubt that there are differences in playing style, amps etc that are needed for ERBs and EUBs, however we have separate forums to post those questions in (AMPS, TECHNIQUE etc). Therefore it appears that only reason that a separate ERB forum is actually desirable is to separate the discussion from the potential "hassles", however following that logic, we should also separte the other groups who get hassled as well.

my point with trivialisation is that these examples are a single-instance decision. once you get an instrument, buy a fodera, buy a wish bass (both obviously if they are somewhat standard in configuration), a behringer amp, etc, then your bass playing experience is going to fall back in line with the general experience shared with your peers. that's not the case with an erb. you can't just buy a 7 string or a 9 string and then go back to playing "bass as usual", there are many pragmatic and practical concerns that have to be addressed, almost every aspect of your signal chain has to be addressed, or at least considered, along with many aspects of your playing technique. i've said this before, but i appreciate the opportunity to say it again in this reference so as to hopefully clear up a spot of confusion.

any of these oft-maligned individuals that i mentioned can still get a lot out of the tb experience without the hassles or (even better) with real understanding and meaningful conversation about their bassing experience from other folks here, in all the forums. many erb'ers, being in a huge minority anyway, and often having a generally short halflife on the site unfortunately even when they do participate, are going to have little in common with the majority of posters here, although they still have a lot to learn - there's the links of common experience and musical knowledge that anyone can learn from, regardless of string configuration.

that's another reason why i feel that a forum is called for. somewhere to go where one can be certain of getting one's answers to one's questions by folks with similar interests. think of it like "effects[bg]" - not everyone plays with effects, those who don't really can't share too much knowledge for an effects-based question, and often they are maligning towards folks who do use effects. it used to be that way here before forums were set up and delineated along topic lines, but now that there's an effects forum, that kind of treatment is greatly lessened. i can say with impunity that an erb discussion[bg] forum under the bass guitar forum header will end up much the same, and further will probably have as much as, if not more, traffic than some of the smaller bg forums, and it will bring new folks to tb to discuss things specifically by it's own existence. folks are going to come to the forum for a specific reason, and then hang around and share everywhere because they get hooked .

well. this horse is certainly dead .

 

[Marlat]

well. this horse is certainly dead .

aye!

 

[john turner]

I will say this about SOME ERB: Some of you look down on the "4" string players in the same sense that some "4" string players look down on you. What's the difference??

examples please? are these in general responses towards someone's ignorance or insults, or are these truly un-prompted ramblings? just curious - after all if these are honest replies towards insults or insinuations then they are just as valid as you calling nick man obtuse for disagreeing with you .

 

[embellisher]

Behringer owners
Mark Hoppus owners
Ibanez owners
Wishnevsky bass owners
Fodera owners
the Sadowsky brand etc

Don't forget the Bongo! It needs a subforum too.

 

[HeavyDuty]

.

 

[cgworkman]

examples please? are these in general responses towards someone's ignorance or insults, or are these truly un-prompted ramblings? just curious - after all if these are honest replies towards insults or insinuations then they are just as valid as you calling nick man obtuse for disagreeing with you .

I didn't say he was obtuse for disagreeing with me - But for adding semantics to what I said. Simple.

Here's what I really said:

You're being obtuse. From some of your postings, it's clear you are not an idiot - so don't act like one by adding semantics to MY postings.

As I said: From his earlier postings he appears intelligent. Why screw around whith people by splitting hairs??

AND, apparently I'm not the only one who noticed...

I've seen this. Comments like, and I quote, "4 stringers can't see the future", extreme defensiveness and even personal attacks when someone suggests the fact, as borne per this thread, that there's prejudice against the look/etc of 6/7/8/9 string basses that someone may not want to incur at an audition for a traditional act, etc.

They definitely give at least as good as they get if not give in the first place with a general air of superiority, which is arguably warranted in some ways (I think most ERBers have a far greater grasp of theory and some techniques than the average 4-stringer, and that deserves respect whether or not said techniques have any bearing on the role of bass in most music), but why provoke the hasslers even if in self-defense?

The concept of "ignore them and they'll go away" isn't often practiced by some ERBers. I'm sure they mean well, that maybe by debunking a hassler the hassler might see the light, but I'm just saying it takes two to tango and some ERBers are often very eager to tango.

Or to use a different group as an example, anyone can respect someone saying "I like my Behringer and that's all I could spend" but someone insisting "Behringer didn't completely rip off Ashdown's design" is simply asking for it.

Now this is where you type the part about me being wrong because in this world today NO ONE can be at fault for anything anymore. If I've said something toward a "ERB" that came across as an insult - my apoligies. In my first few weeks here I asked about a photo of a 8 string bass. The replies from the owner and many others were quite rude. Why is that? Are some of you wound so tight that you've gotten to the point that your automatic response is one of anger and hate??

If that's the case you should seek another hobby because you can't handle what you perceive as persecution over your chosen "instrument".

But all of this proves and goes back to my original point: Everyone here should calm down, including myself I guess. We're still all musicians and most importantly bass players!! Let's all just get along.

 

[john turner]

since this thread started there have been two viable erb-specific threads, one on needing a key replacement and one on the mastering of recordings using the low c#, and in both threads individuals have wandered in and trolled.

how much of this has to happen? an erb specific forum would filter many of these sucktards out by its very nature, as has been specified repeatedly already in this thread.

 

[Marlat]

since this thread started there have been two viable erb-specific threads, one on needing a key replacement and one on the mastering of recordings using the low c#, and in both threads individuals have wandered in and trolled.

how much of this has to happen? an erb specific forum would filter many of these sucktards out by its very nature, as has been specified repeatedly already in this thread.

Lest we forget the three threads that were started and closed in which someone trolled Sadowsky related issues, the MTD bashing in the Gibson thread and the Wish bashing thread that have also occurred since this thread was started.

Also, EMO music was bashed in the Miscellaneous forums, PCs and Macs have been bashed, as has Internet Explorer and Mike Money was bashed repeatedly in many forums