Show Us Your Rob Allen Basses Part IV

[tedw]

FenderP, I'm guessing that you've tried Acoustic Image gear before. What are your thoughts about those products?

 

[FenderP]

FenderP, I'm guessing that you've tried Acoustic Image gear before. What are your thoughts about those products?

I looked at them when I was reconfiguring my setup, but have never tried them. I did have a Walter Woods - didn't like that. The AI stuff from what I can tell is NOT the sound I am going for so ... that's that. Also, since I also play stuff other than my D4 any of the heads I looked at didn't seem to be a fit for what I wanted from a regular electric, either.

 

[foothilla]

Sounds like fun!



I was playing at a small church around 2002 with an SWR Baby Blue (2x8's) and felt I needed something more, so I tried a non-powered Bag End as an extension speaker. It was just too intense for me. Strange to say, but I could feel the notes too much and it kind of hurt my head. I took it back to Bass NW and that's where I got the term "too woofy for me" which is what they called it. They traded it for an Aguilar GS112 which did seemed smoother to me. I was playing a Mike Lull 5-string at the time. I think I bought an MB2-5 around 2005 and then stumbled into Acoustic Image gear (again at Bass NW). First I got the just a Clarus head with Epifani speakers. Then, I got over the form factor thing at bought an AI speaker. Truly... that was a great sound. I got my Mouse around 2008 and used it at church. I did use the direct out of the Clarus on stage for around 5 to 7 years. It was great! Then, thanks to a fellow TBer, I got into Mike Lull P4s and PJs. The church went to a silent stage policy.... no more on stage amps, at least for bass players. I was always curious about tubes and tried a Monique and then the Noble. For me, the Noble along with a P4 or PJ going direct to the board and using IEMs is amazing! And - perhaps more importantly, the sound techs at church love the sound of the PJ with the Noble (this almost assures that I end up well-placed in the mix). Rob's basses work very well with the Noble as well but I've mostly played the PJ at church from 2014 until March 2020 when you-know-what happened. The Noble would work great at home and that's why I bought the powered Wayne Jones speaker. Then.... that was so cool and Wayne was offering fire-sale prices to close his US inventory. Soooo... I ended up buying another speaker and a preamp. In my little practice room, I just like the sound of it. But when I go back to what I love to do - playing at church - I will most likely be taking the Noble and PJ...Although my favorite guitar player loves the Mouse, so he might talk me into it.. That's a SUPER long answer to your questions. I'm really not an expert... those are just my experiences. Thanks for inciting me to take a trip down memory lane. Enjoy your new Deep 4... Incredible instrument!

Can I ask what you didn't like about the Noble pre, plugged directly into your Wayne Jones powered cab?

I am leaning towards grabbing an AI head. But man, the shape of their new cabs turns me off. You can't stack them. It would be nice to be able to stack two Doubleshots, for big rooms and loud drummers.

 

[foothilla]

I used the Double Four with my Deep 4 for awhile. I found it a bit ... mushy. It did not sit well in a lot of band situations and I struggled to hear myself compared to other things.

I wouldn't expect much more than a practice amp out of a box that size and 4" speakers (without PA/monitor assistance).

 

[foothilla]

I don't own a Deep model, so I may not have enough context, but I'm surprised that you aren't able to find what you're looking for with the Quilter. It's my go-to amp for small and medium gigs, especially when I'm looking for a warm organic sound! (Interestingly, I also have Mesa gear for larger gigs) Maybe it's a different speaker you need?

I pair mine with an AI Upshot cab that I purchased for theater pit work. The up-firing speaker enabled me to keep the volume low in cramped quarters with other musicians, but it turned out to also work great on stage for up to 150 person shows/rooms with a small jazz band or bluegrass group, on electric or upright bass. Bonus: The components fit perfectly into my old Targus backpack with room for cables, a folding guitar stand, and a handful of pedals!

I have only tried my Quilter with my Trace Elf cabs (I have three 1 x 10, no tweeters). I should plug it into my Mesa cabs and see how it sounds. To get my Subway 800+ and Mesa cabs to sound decent with the RA, I have the tweeters dialed all the way back on the cabs, and the highs cut on the RA.

 

[tedw]

Can I ask what you didn't like about the Noble pre, plugged directly into your Wayne Jones powered cab?

I am leaning towards grabbing an AI head. But man, the shape of their new cabs turns me off. You can't stack them. It would be nice to be able to stack two Doubleshots, for big rooms and loud drummers.

I've don't think Acoustic Image speakers are best for loud drummers. I have an Clarus combo and Upshot speaker. I've not tried the doubleshot, but I'd like to. Regardless, I know what you mean about the cabs. But they do sound awful nice for a more acoustic-style set. I know people use them in big bands as well. Have you checked out Gollihur music? They are mostly focused on stand-up bass, but their amplification knowledge makes sense for Rob Allen basses too (IMO). You could give them a call and toss things around with them. They've been carrying Acoustic Image gear from the beginning but they carry other brands as well. I've always found them to be honest and able to make relevant suggestions. Nice people.

I know of at least one other user that likes the Noble plugged into the Wayne Jones cab. (you might be able to search him out on the Noble thread... another good thread for questions like yours). You might love it. I personally thought the WJ preamp was far better matched to the WJ speaker. I get a clear and full sound with that set up. The Noble sounds to dark to me plugged in the WJ powered speaker. Other than that, the Noble is an amazing piece of gear. Put that between your instrument and the sound board and something special happens.

I hope this helps.

 

[FenderP]

25738118[/URL], member: 297143"]I wouldn't expect much more than a practice amp out of a box that size and 4" speakers (without PA/monitor assistance).

You would not be right here.

volume wise it was fine. I was referring to sound quality and tone.

I have not needed a PA or anything for any jazz gig - small group or big band -ever.

 

[foothilla]

You would not be right here.

volume wise it was fine. I was referring to sound quality and tone.

I have not needed a PA or anything for any jazz gig - small group or big band -ever.

That's cool, but I am working with drummers, on full kits, often in dead-walled rehearsal rooms, without plugging into the PA. A PJ suitcase (with active Fodera) was unsatisfactory hanging in these rooms. So, without ever playing the PJ double four, I am 100% certain that I would never be heard over these boys. But, it would probably be the perfect living room amp for me.

I don't like filtering out a ton of my low end, and my RA Deep 4 is loaded with robust bottom. I had to aggressively HP filter to get my volume up with the PJ suitcase and a Fodera. I would have had to totally kill the RA's low end character in order to get that volume up high enough on the suitcase. I'd like a rig that can handle the Rob Allen's fat low end, keeping it tight and focused, without tons of HP filter.

I find the Rob Allen really tests the low end tightness of my rigs/cabs. It definitely can send a speaker into the flabby zone much quicker than a slab electric bass, with mag pickups.

 

[foothilla]

I've don't think Acoustic Image speakers are best for loud drummers. I have an Clarus combo and Upshot speaker. I've not tried the doubleshot, but I'd like to. Regardless, I know what you mean about the cabs. But they do sound awful nice for a more acoustic-style set. I know people use them in big bands as well. Have you checked out Gollihur music? They are mostly focused on stand-up bass, but their amplification knowledge makes sense for Rob Allen basses too (IMO). You could give them a call and toss things around with them. They've been carrying Acoustic Image gear from the beginning but they carry other brands as well. I've always found them to be honest and able to make relevant suggestions. Nice people.

I know of at least one other user that likes the Noble plugged into the Wayne Jones cab. (you might be able to search him out on the Noble thread... another good thread for questions like yours). You might love it. I personally thought the WJ preamp was far better matched to the WJ speaker. I get a clear and full sound with that set up. The Noble sounds to dark to me plugged in the WJ powered speaker. Other than that, the Noble is an amazing piece of gear. Put that between your instrument and the sound board and something special happens.

I hope this helps.

I find the Rob Allen is tricky to amplify. The low end can get flabby quick, if you are underpowered, or if your cabs aren't really tight and focused on the low end.

My Mesa cabs handle to low end like champs, but they make the Rob Allen sound more like and electric fretless than an upright. I would like to get closer to the upright end of the spectrum, without a flabby (or heavily filtered) low end.

The EBS Drome can yield a sound closer to an upright, but with only 150watts, it'll flab-out at a much lower volume.

 

[tedw]

That's cool, but I am working with drummers, on full kits, often in dead-walled rehearsal rooms, without plugging into the PA. A PJ suitcase (with active Fodera) was unsatisfactory hanging in these rooms. So, without ever playing the PJ double four, I am 100% certain that I would never be heard over these boys. But, it would probably be the perfect living room amp for me.

I don't like filtering out a ton of my low end, and my RA Deep 4 is loaded with robust bottom. I had to aggressively HP filter to get my volume up with the PJ suitcase and a Fodera. I would have had to totally kill the RA's low end character in order to get that volume up high enough on the suitcase. I'd like a rig that can handle the Rob Allen's fat low end, keeping it tight and focused, without tons of HP filter.

I find the Rob Allen really tests the low end tightness of my rigs/cabs. It definitely can send a speaker into the flabby zone much quicker than a slab electric bass, with mag pickups.

Yikes! I hope you have some kind of hearing protection. I didn't back in the day, so now my ears ring all the time. Fortunately, I've found ways to adjust to it and it bother me less since finding an audiologist that truly cares about tinnitus.

I'm beginning to sound like and Acoustic Image rep, and I don't mean to do that. But another advantage of the Acoustic Image heads is the low cut filter that you can activate as needed. I've done that in some cases where I got complaints of boominess. Sounds like you've already experimented with that. Your choice of course.

Your post underscores how personal preference and individual situations should affect selection of amps and speakers. I have my doubts regarding the usefulness of the AI speakers for your situation. But the amps are cool. Maybe your original idea of the powered Bag End with the Noble would be worth a try. Sometimes you just have to experiment.

 

[Ric Vice]

I went back a page found that. Thanks. Is the MAS 1/6 powered? I wonder how that would work with the Noble. 1/6 seems soooo small, but they don't make speakers like they used too (they've gotten better).

Mike did build powered versions MAS. In his latest version he used a Clare pro 6.5.

 

[FenderP]

That's cool, but I am working with drummers, on full kits, often in dead-walled rehearsal rooms, without plugging into the PA. A PJ suitcase (with active Fodera) was unsatisfactory hanging in these rooms. So, without ever playing the PJ double four, I am 100% certain that I would never be heard over these boys. But, it would probably be the perfect living room amp for me.

I don't like filtering out a ton of my low end, and my RA Deep 4 is loaded with robust bottom. I had to aggressively HP filter to get my volume up with the PJ suitcase and a Fodera. I would have had to totally kill the RA's low end character in order to get that volume up high enough on the suitcase. I'd like a rig that can handle the Rob Allen's fat low end, keeping it tight and focused, without tons of HP filter.

I find the Rob Allen really tests the low end tightness of my rigs/cabs. It definitely can send a speaker into the flabby zone much quicker than a slab electric bass, with mag pickups.

The Deep 4 is a horrible match on the piezo side for my B-15 all day and twice on Sunday. So trust me I get it's not the easiest to amp. Add to that I have two outputs and it makes amps interesting for me more than usual.

That said, I did outdoor big band gigs (four or five trumpets, usually four trombones, five saxes, drummer, piano) with the Double Four and people heard me from far away. My mileage definitely varies here. It was the tone that killed it.

I will agree the Double Four had no headroom in terms of its ceiling - once you hit it, you hit it.

The B-15 is what, 30, 35 watts? Yes, it's tube and two smaller speakers do not send as much sound as a 1x15", but I literally used the B-15 as my main gigging amp for many years and it powered big bands.

 

[foothilla]

That said, I did outdoor big band gigs (four or five trumpets, usually four trombones, five saxes, drummer, piano) with the Double Four and people heard me from far away. My mileage definitely varies here. It was the tone that killed it.

Wow,...that's nuts! I used to have an SWR Redhead (2 x 10") that I tried to play at two outdoor gigs with (w/o PA/monitor assistance). They were the most terrifying gigs of my life, because I literally could not hear myself, at all. I couldn't imagine taking two 4" speakers for an outdoor gig, with a drummer and no PA help. But, that's awesome that you pulled it off!

 

[Groove Doctor]

So, I am going to get rid of a bunch of the above mentioned gear, and go on the quest for the perfect Rob Allen amp/cab/combo. Let me know what you experienced RA guys think is the ultimate Rob Allen rig.

My Mesa cabs handle to low end like champs, but they make the Rob Allen sound more like and electric fretless than an upright. I would like to get closer to the upright end of the spectrum, without a flabby (or heavily filtered) low end.

I've tried many rigs and always come back to
RA Mouse -> Jule Monique M700 -> Bergantino CN212.

Warm yet articulate, rich bottom with zero flab, organic dynamic & minimalist Sounds great quiet or loud, with almost unlimited headroom. The Berg Ref series cabs are worth trialing too.

Next favourite was RA Mouse -> Thunderfunk 550 -> Baer ML112 (8" mid, 12" Lows, no tweeter). Two ML112's sounded even better (but I didn't like the size/weight of two of these).

also-:-
I haven't tried the Juke Simone Pre (yet) but definite put that on your list of pre's to try.

Berg did a few powered cabs - IP series. Put those on your to-try list too.

Hated it through the AI amps IME. I had a Clarus head (briefly).

PJB Flightcase 4x5" - tone sounded lovely in the bedroom, got lost in the Big Band rehearsal room.

AER Bass One - volume great & sounded OK…but tone a little too electric bass. (Great with other basses so I kept it!).

Glockenklang Blue Soul head was very nice tone. A bit polite for my tastes but had plenty of volume, headroom & EQ options.

An adjustable HPF like an Fdeck will help tame the lows/protect speakers esp if you go for a smaller rig. It'll also allow certain playing techniques for tone modification to work better.
eg. Plectrum + Palm muting.

Together it allows you to Boost your Deep's Bass knob, whilst taming ultra low transients for more clarity or to dial in the perfect low to low-mid hump.

 

[nostatic]

My current gig is Deep 4 only, tuned a half step flat. I ve tried a lot of amp/speaker combos over the years. For me the AK Hathor 1-12 is the easy winner on the cabinet side. I don't like the piezo with a regular tweeter, the 4" paper cone is magic. On the amp side Mesa WD800 is first choice as the tube adds a bit of edge to the attack. I cut bass and add a bit of upper mids. I also use the D800 backup, have to cut a bit more bass and add a bit more upper mids. If I'm running direct I can get by cutting some bass on the D4.

all ymmv, but I've gigged various RA basses in a lot of different gig situations, duo to 10-piece, jazz to funk. Careful eq and the right gear can make or break the use.

 

[FenderP]

An adjustable HPF like an Fdeck will help tame the lows/protect speakers esp if you go for a smaller rig. It'll also allow certain playing techniques for tone modification to work better.

On the YMMV tip, I did not like the Fdeck. I have the Microthumpinator which I put after the pre but before the speaker sim.

 

[foothilla]

I've tried many rigs and always come back to
RA Mouse -> Jule Monique M700 -> Bergantino CN212.

Warm yet articulate, rich bottom with zero flab, organic dynamic & minimalist Sounds great quiet or loud, with almost unlimited headroom. The Berg Ref series cabs are worth trialing too.

Next favourite was RA Mouse -> Thunderfunk 550 -> Baer ML112 (8" mid, 12" Lows, no tweeter). Two ML112's sounded even better (but I didn't like the size/weight of two of these).

also-:-
I haven't tried the Juke Simone Pre (yet) but definite put that on your list of pre's to try.

Berg did a few powered cabs - IP series. Put those on your to-try list too.

Hated it through the AI amps IME. I had a Clarus head (briefly).

PJB Flightcase 4x5" - tone sounded lovely in the bedroom, got lost in the Big Band rehearsal room.

AER Bass One - volume great & sounded OK…but tone a little too electric bass. (Great with other basses so I kept it!).

Glockenklang Blue Soul head was very nice tone. A bit polite for my tastes but had plenty of volume, headroom & EQ options.

An adjustable HPF like an Fdeck will help tame the lows/protect speakers esp if you go for a smaller rig. It'll also allow certain playing techniques for tone modification to work better.
eg. Plectrum + Palm muting.

Together it allows you to Boost your Deep's Bass knob, whilst taming ultra low transients for more clarity or to dial in the perfect low to low-mid hump.

This is a fantastic breakdown! Thank you so much!

It seems like you prefer the 12" speakers with your Rob Allen, and with my current rigs, my 12" EBS is what I like best, out of my current options. My experience with the PJ Flightcase was identical to yours. Sounded great on it's on, but was lost with a hard hitting drummer and sound absorbing rehearsal-room walls.

Can I ask what you didn't like about the AI with you Rob Allen? The Clarus was one of my top considerations for my RA, because so many people seem to like it.

I think I am transitioning over to the RA fretless as my main bass. It's absolutely addictive to play. But, I would love to find ideal amplification for it, without having to buy 5 different "test" rigs. It's just so hard to find somewhere to try out the boutique stuff, that I end up having to buy-to-try,.....which is so frustrating. Guys, like you, are helping me wade through the muck. It's greatly appreciated.

 

[foothilla]

My current gig is Deep 4 only, tuned a half step flat. I ve tried a lot of amp/speaker combos over the years. For me the AK Hathor 1-12 is the easy winner on the cabinet side. I don't like the piezo with a regular tweeter, the 4" paper cone is magic. On the amp side Mesa WD800 is first choice as the tube adds a bit of edge to the attack. I cut bass and add a bit of upper mids. I also use the D800 backup, have to cut a bit more bass and add a bit more upper mids. If I'm running direct I can get by cutting some bass on the D4.

all ymmv, but I've gigged various RA basses in a lot of different gig situations, duo to 10-piece, jazz to funk. Careful eq and the right gear can make or break the use.

Interesting you have done funk gigs with your RA. My current project is going for what I would describe as "Acoustic Headhunters",....improvisational jazz that's heavy on the funk end of the spectrum,...but acoustic. I haven't seen many others using their RA for funky stuff.

I have a D800+,....anyway you could send me a snapshot of your favorite Rob Allen setting on your D800? I hate to sell my Mesa rig, because it sounds awesome with most basses, including the Rob Allen. But, it makes the Rob Allen sound like a nice, hifi, electric fretless. I can't get the RA to sound even remotely upright-ish with the Mesa (paired with 10" speakers, tweeters dialed back to the max). I've accepted that the Rob Allen will never duplicate an authentic upright sound. I think the upright string length/tension, and resulting right hand attack, is too hard to replicate on a 34" scale instrument. But, I would like the Rob Allen to sound somewhere closer to that upright spectrum, and the Mesa just sends me closer to the electric fretless sound. Maybe your settings could help me dial it in on the Mesa. I am particularly curious where you set your HP filter.

 

[FenderP]

This is a fantastic breakdown! Thank you so much!

It seems like you prefer the 12" speakers with your Rob Allen, and with my current rigs, my 12" EBS is what I like best, out of my current options. My experience with the PJ Flightcase was identical to yours. Sounded great on it's on, but was lost with a hard hitting drummer and sound absorbing rehearsal-room walls.

...

I think I am transitioning over to the RA fretless as my main bass. It's absolutely addictive to play. But, I would love to find ideal amplification for it, without having to buy 5 different "test" rigs. It's just so hard to find somewhere to try out the boutique stuff, that I end up having to buy-to-try,.....which is so frustrating. Guys, like you, are helping me wade through the muck. It's greatly appreciated.

I'm playing through the MAS 1/6 which is a 6" speaker. It feels more like a 10" and has PLENTY of low end. Now, like you, my amp journey has been just that to get close to the sound I want in my head. If you wanted the Staples easy button version, get a P and any amp It's also why all of us have different rigs. There are so many factors - sound, portability, power, etc.

When I played my B-15 with another bass I was reminded how much the 6" is not 15" So I'm looking into potentially another speaker like the Barefaced One10 or One10T (supposedly more vintage voiced and acts more like a 12 or 15), or maybe one of the new GR Bass AT line (the Cube 1x12 most likely).

Don't get me wrong - I use the 6 all the time and it's great, but the sound and air moving from the B-15 is just better. I'm looking for something that feels closer to that. I did an outdoor gig last night and the sound carried just fine with the 1x6".

Interesting you have done funk gigs with your RA. My current project is going for what I would describe as "Acoustic Headhunters",....improvisational jazz that's heavy on the funk end of the spectrum,...but acoustic. I haven't seen many others using their RA for funky stuff.

I have a D800+,....anyway you could send me a snapshot of your favorite Rob Allen setting on your D800? I hate to sell my Mesa rig, because it sounds awesome with most basses, including the Rob Allen. But, it makes the Rob Allen sound like a nice, hifi, electric fretless. I can't get the RA to sound even remotely upright-ish with the Mesa (paired with 10" speakers, tweeters dialed back to the max). I've accepted that the Rob Allen will never duplicate an authentic upright sound. I think the upright string length/tension, and resulting right hand attack, is too hard to replicate on a 34" scale instrument. But, I would like the Rob Allen to sound somewhere closer to that upright spectrum, and the Mesa just sends me closer to the electric fretless sound. Maybe your settings could help me dial it in on the Mesa. I am particularly curious where you set your HP filter.

I play some funky stuff with both my D4 and the fretted Mouse.

Upright sound is subjective - let's start there. Since I mainly play jazz, I am going for more of an upright sound and come close. String choice, attack, the signal chain, etc. all matter. Being honest, as close as I get with the D4, I get (IMO) a bit closer with my Blast Cult Gateway bass. That said, I use my D4 WAY more. As with my D4, I went through a few different sets of strings on the Gateway and such to get the right signal chain. Ironically even though it is piezo, it plays nicer with my real B-15.

 

[RodRy]

I'm playing through the MAS 1/6 which is a 6" speaker. It feels more like a 10" and has PLENTY of low end. Now, like you, my amp journey has been just that to get close to the sound I want in my head. If you wanted the Staples easy button version, get a P and any amp It's also why all of us have different rigs. There are so many factors - sound, portability, power, etc.

When I played my B-15 with another bass I was reminded how much the 6" is not 15" So I'm looking into potentially another speaker like the Barefaced One10 or One10T (supposedly more vintage voiced and acts more like a 12 or 15), or maybe one of the new GR Bass AT line (the Cube 1x12 most likely).

Don't get me wrong - I use the 6 all the time and it's great, but the sound and air moving from the B-15 is just better. I'm looking for something that feels closer to that. I did an outdoor gig last night and the sound carried just fine with the 1x6".



I play some funky stuff with both my D4 and the fretted Mouse.

Upright sound is subjective - let's start there. Since I mainly play jazz, I am going for more of an upright sound and come close. String choice, attack, the signal chain, etc. all matter. Being honest, as close as I get with the D4, I get (IMO) a bit closer with my Blast Cult Gateway bass. That said, I use my D4 WAY more. As with my D4, I went through a few different sets of strings on the Gateway and such to get the right signal chain. Ironically even though it is piezo, it plays nicer with my real B-15.

I've not heard of a "MAS 1/6" before. Searching online I ended up finding ducting, not amps. Will you elaborate a bit?

I'd forgotten about the Blast Cult Gateway basses and had to look them up again. For my money, I like the look of Rob's work better. Of course, Blast Cult may have a better feel, sound, or ergonomics.