Double Bass Simandl is Borring¿?

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Sturm is nice but just an Etude book like many others.. Now..

I just pulled out my Bille collection. I have 9 books. 7 method books and two 'other' !.. The method Books were $6.00 each when I got them.. Roll back your callendar.. Some of you were not yet born.. LOL..Sad, But true..

I see in Book One, I have circled all the excersizes thru about half the book. That means I read thru them. I do not recall working on the various bowings but might have made a few attempts to try some out. Also.. BIG THING HERE Guys.. Bille uses the Third(3rd) finger in place of the Second(2nd). Did anyone notice that?.. I have spoken to one teacher recently that uses the Bille book with Simandl fingering (1-2-4.. instead of 1-3-4). Maybe he is traning you to strengthen your third finger and later use 1-2-3-4?..

Anyhow, I just wanted to mention that I have dabbled in the Bille at one time. It is more melodic sounding but not as strong in fundamential position training as the Simandl as far as I can see. I suggest if you have the dedication to have dinner and dessert!! Use both books.. Simandle for Boot Camp and Bille for weekend furlows....

I see how they both can help but I also see where they are coming from. It was mentioned about Bille doing more opera type playing because he was Italian. Maybe true, maybe not but all the heavy duty Orchestra players came from the 'Prague' School and decendents as well as the German and Vieneese Schools. Not the Italian or French as far as Orchestral works goes. Nanny and Dragonetti are exceptions.

The German Method books I have (Hoffmeister) looks more like a Violin method than a Bass method and that's just book 1 and 2. Scary to know that 125 years ago most of us would be only considered beginners as the old masters did not care if you thought it was "Boring"!!! You would practice or you would not eat dinner.

 

[Rob W]

I've been thinking a bit more about this on my way to and from work this evening...

Listen...I know Simandl really does have some very valuable things about it, and has done quite a lot of good for a great many players. I just feel that the Bille studies, as one example, accomplish at least as much but, without a doubt, encourage phrasing and musicality right from the begining. It's not perhaps as obvious as it could be - he doesn't come out and say 'crescendo here', 'dim there', 'stretch the time' here... but through the guidance of a good teacher, the opportunities are there for showing musicality very early on.

I fully appreciate the need for stressing fundamentals of technique, but ultimately we need to make good music, so stressing the fundamentals of phrasing and musicality ALSO need to be worked on right from the start.

Jon Neuman said a few post ago, "If you want to play music, play the cello suites, or koussevitzky, or better yet, learn the standard orchestral rep inside and out. The role of the bass is an accompaniment instrument first and foremost."

I agree that the primary role of the bass is as accompaniment (see my ramblings in the "Should I be a Soloist" thread"), so I think it's all the more important we learn about phrasing ourselves firsthand so we understand what it is we are accompanying. A big part of accompanying is knowing what the melody requires of you. The easisest way to know is to put yourself in their shoes some of the time in the practice studio.

And further to the point, playing orchestral bass parts IS playing music, or at least it should be that way ideally (which may be what you were saying, Jon). Understand melody and phrasing more, and you'll have more to contribute to your orchestra parts.

Incidentally, IMO, learning the Bach cello suites on the bass, especially early on, will probably frustrate the heck out of you more than teach you about phrasing. There are simpler things that can 'ease' the student into learning about phrasing.

So, for those of you who have the first Bille book, take a look at study #47 (page 35). It's a real little gem of music. It doesn't go any higher than C on the G string, yet I've taught countless bits of fundamental technique AND phrasing all in that one little study. On the technical side you can work on string crossings, slurs, bow speed, retakes, placing left hand fingers down early, leaving fingers down when required, pivot shifts, etc.. On the musical side, you can work on crescendos, diminuendos, ritards, recapitulations, and general phrase shaping. Now the musical things aren't spelled out directly, but they are SO easy to find.

I agree that no one bass method is going to give you everything you need. I give my students a huge variety of things to work on beyond the Bille studies (if they stick around long enough, I give them Bottesini studies, and Montanari, Petracchi, etc). I always have them work on different technical things from a variety of sources and I always make them work on a small solo piece, whether or not they ever perform it in front of anyone. Well rounded is the way to go.

All I can say is I never find my students seem to neglect their Bille studies because they all seem to actually like playing them and they all seem to have a good attitude about them. I can't count how many times I've heard people moan about "having" to play their Simandl. It almost like somebody choosing to take a bitter tasting medicine when the sweeter tasting cure is just as effective. Why suffer? Is it some sort of penance or something?

 

[Shmelbee]

amen

 

[Rob W]

Sturm is nice but just an Etude book like many others.. Now..

I just pulled out my Bille collection. I have 9 books. 7 method books and two 'other' !.. The method Books were $6.00 each when I got them.. Roll back your callendar.. Some of you were not yet born.. LOL..Sad, But true..

I see in Book One, I have circled all the excersizes thru about half the book. That means I read thru them. I do not recall working on the various bowings but might have made a few attempts to try some out. Also.. BIG THING HERE Guys.. Bille uses the Third(3rd) finger in place of the Second(2nd). Did anyone notice that?.. I have spoken to one teacher recently that uses the Bille book with Simandl fingering (1-2-4.. instead of 1-3-4). Maybe he is traning you to strengthen your third finger and later use 1-2-3-4?..

Ken, I just saw your post now...

I did mention that Bille uses the antiquated 3rd finger method. The simple soloution - just change them all to 2nd finger until you get up high, and Bob's your uncle!

Hey, I'm not trying to be confrontational - I hope I'm not coming across that way. Do you really think Bille stresses position training less? I don't really see that, but I'll try to take a look at it from that perspective in the next few days. Maybe you're right - I'll check it out.

Hey, and last time I checked, Bottesini came out of the Italian opera tradition and I understand he was a pretty good bass player.

 

[Savino]

Nice post Rob

You said what a lot of us were thinking. The only technique you need is just enough to play the music you want to hear. Serve the music. Your skills will advance naturally as you take on more demanding pieces.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Yes Bottesini was good but the main group of Monsters came from Germany and east..

As far as the first half of Bille I and the same number of pages in Simandl I, I think they have different approaches. I want to stess this fact to all.. Playing music IS the final goal here. "It is better to show up with your Guns loaded than half empty"!

Playing Orchestra now, I can see how important my Position traning was. Even when I was 17 and Auditioned for Horace Silver Quintet, it was my traning that got me the gig as I was the only one able to read all the charts and find the best positions at sight.

I plan on working thru more Bille now that this thread has come up. I never liked the music that much of Simandl but it was my training wheels.

 

[jneuman]

And further to the point, playing orchestral bass parts IS playing music, or at least it should be that way ideally (which may be what you were saying, Jon). Understand melody and phrasing more, and you'll have more to contribute to your orchestra parts.

Incidentally, IMO, learning the Bach cello suites on the bass, especially early on, will probably frustrate the heck out of you more than teach you about phrasing. There are simpler things that can 'ease' the student into learning about phrasing.?

Rob

Yes, that what I meant. Re: the suites, I guess that was a bad example since they even frustrate advanced players, beginners should stay away until they are ready I think - same with Kouss.

As and interesting aside, there is a method by Eugene Cruft (English symphony bassist) that is entirely based on orchestral excerpts. There are no original excericises or etudes. He used examples from orchestral parts that focus on the particular portion of the fingerboard which is being learned. This is a neat way of getting the student to A. learn the orchestral rep as early as possible, and B. teach the student using actual music by well know composers. I don't know if this method works better or worse than any other, but I know that in England this method was popular for a time at least.

Don't get me wrong, I like other methods besides Simandl. Warren Benfield stresses in his book that we should look at all of the available resources and pick and choose what works best. I agree with this approach.

Jon

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I think a student should practice and study and not try to determine what he may or may not absorb in the process. What sticks will stick. Looking back, sight is 20/20. Looking forward the skys are cloudy... Just play as much material you can find. Your Chops will show you what worked.

Enjoying the sound of the book you work with is nice but being bored with it doesn't mean it is not helping you. No Pain, No Gain!!
That goes for 'mentally' and 'physically' as well.....

 

[Humph]

I use Simandl everyday, I started about 10 months ago. My teacher also has me working out of a sight-singing book, lots of 4 to 12 measure melodies to sing to.
When I find time I also go through some etudes in Rufus Reid's book.
However, Simandl is the basis of my practice. I do the exercises in the postions section in "open postition" & "thumb postition". I also use the scales, and broken chords section in the back of the book. The key that I'm working on in the beginning of Simandl is the same one I'll practice on in the scales and broken chords section.
I'm interested in finding out about the 4 finger method as opposed to Simandl's 3 finger method. Are there any method books for that?
I think Simandl is a great learning tool when used right. There just needs to be more than just Simandl. A teacher is what is needed most. If that is possible.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I find that the Thumb position exercises in Simandl and other books are a bit limited. I learned the Dragonetti with my teacher Lew Norton about 30+ years ago. It was a gradual learning experiencing. We used only the Concerto to learn without using another method to practice Thumb position. I had done alot of practice with Simandl, scales and playing in thumb position before. This would be the highest form of application for me up to that time.

Recently it came to my mind that I could use the Simandl book from Page one and just play it an octave higher on all 4 strings. This gave me the Thumb workout I was looking for. When playing Jazz Solos it's always a challenge to play smoothly and in tune up in the thumb position. I remember watching Reggie Workman back around 1969-'70 in a club playing across the 4 strings in thumb position so easily and fluidly. I studied with him for awhile and we too used Simandl as he did with his Teacher Fred Zimmerman (If my memory and facts serves me correctly).

So using a book is one thing but taking it up an octave is a whole 'nother challenge.......

 

[prelims222]

Must be nice to have a bass you can play smoothly in thumb position on all Four strings. Let me know how that A Major etude goes.

 

[Samie]

... It was design to getting the beginning player to a functional level for orchestra playing quickly, and that IMO is what it is best at. ...

I think that is part of the problem. Its a great book no doubt about that because it will make you a better bass player.

A fuctional orchestra level is NO longer a priority, I think. A lot of people just want to enjoy the instrument.

Maybe after half-position and first position players should learn mary-had-a-little-lamb and 100 other fun tunes instead of them boring drills.

Who cares if you never reach functional orchestra level, at least you will be able to play happy-birthday!!!:-D

No wonder there are so many db dropouts.

 

[Rob W]

Yes, well I think that is why (after all of this!) it is important to have a well rounded course of study. As much as it would be nice for a method book to be a 'complete' course of study, there are very few if any, that truly are.

As I said earlier, I split my teaching into three or four areas: 1. scales, arpeggios, specific technical drills 2. studies from a good method book 3. one or two solo bass pieces 4. orchestral excerpts


That is also what I try to cover in my own practice, although as a working professional, if I don't do any one the four, I would skip the solos. Maybe that's why I prefer more melodic studies, since I rarely work on actual solo rep these days.

Anyway, if all you do is play out of a method book, you're probably going to get bored. The studies have their very important place, but you need to play some real music too to really keep your interest. After all, that's why we play - we want to play real music - studies just help us play our real music better.

There are a number of good solo books out now that make a terrific supplement to a good method book. The Hartley "Double Bass Solo 1" and the series of George Vance books have lots of easier, good sounding solos in the lower positions. Add some of these to your practice routine to help give some real practical application for all of your hard work.

 

[mje]

Second that on the Vance books. My nephew is about mid-way through the second Vance book, and just about everything he's played from day one is interesting (to him) and gives him a sense that he's accomplished something. Simandl must bore kids his age out of their heads.

 

[Rob W]

Okay...I've had a chance to go back and have a good look at the first Simandl book and honestly, as good as some things are there were a few things I would consider major flaws, or at least probably not the best possible approach.

Perhaps one of the most bizarre omissions from the entire early part of the book, is the complete lack of a single slur or articlulation marking until the player has worked their way all the way up the positions as far as the high A! There is essentially nothing more than legato, single stroke notes for almost half of the book!

He doesn't introduce any kind of staccato or any other articluation markings such as accents until even later (with the exception of one study which has a few specific legato markings!).

So essentially there is very little variety of bow stroke until you've finished half the book. That seems awfully late in a player's development to be just introducing slurs, etc.

The other thing I find a bit weird is that there are no minor keys at all, again until you've learned past the first octave of the string. I also find that to be awfully late in the game too.

As many of you may have figured out by now, I'm much more of a fan of Bille.

In Bille the first slurs and staccato marks appear almost immediately - even before the left hand has been used. The first accents appear on study #9 (of the main numbered studies proper). The first minor mode appears at study #7! The first slurs in a full study appear at study #16, where we also have bowing variations involving both staccato and legato notes.

I strongly feel these are some pretty fundamental concepts that are better addressed fairly early on, not only after the student has started venturing past the octave!

Of course you already know the less interesting side of the Simandl studies. Play a two bar battern - modulate up a step, play it again, modulate up another step. I played through much of the first section of Simandl this morning - starting with two bars, I could almost predict the notes for the entire rest of the study using the above formula. Anyway, that's a gross overgeneralization, I know, but there's a lot of truth in that.

There really are some very good things in there, but a lot of the studies are just very uninspired compositionally while others are just plain weird. Some would really focus on a specific problem well enough, but at the expense of good music. I suppose you can argue were not working on music that point, but it sure is nicer if you can target a specific skill AND make some nice music at the same time.

In general, I really feel Simandl isn't anywhere near as thorough as Bille in training the bow for the huge variety of bow strokes required in the repertoire. Albeit, on the surface, in Bille book 1, you may be asking yourself where it is too? (although, even still there is a fair amount of bow study in there) In the Bille system, the student is also expected to work through book 2 (262) at the same time as book 1. It is a supplemental book of technical studies - scales, arpeggios, intervals and, most importantly, The School of the Bow, which covers hundreds of bowing variations. Simandl does some of this bow work, but it's too little and too late for my money.

Anyway, that's my further take on it after a little bit more thorough comparison.

 

[EFischer1]

The point of Simandl is not for it to be a book to learn bowing. If it was where we all learned our bowing from we would, of course, be extremely, extremely lacking players. It is meant to be a course of study to familiarize the student with the left hand. It makes no contention, that I can see, to the contrary. It is simply a method to familiarize the student with playing in all keys and in all positions on the instrument. Is it so hard for us just to accept it for what it is?

 

[pklima]

I think Simandl is really good for slab converts like myself. It starts by working in lower-position intonation and tone production which quickly gets one the minimum skills for playing something useful in some styles of music (bluegrass, church choir, country) and thus gets one playing Real Music with Real People. IMO it's better to learn musicality that way than from a method book.

I've heard more than once that Simandl book 1 taken an octave up is better thumb position practice than Simandl book 2. For drilling intonation and bowing all four strigns I have to agree.

 

[Rob W]

The point of Simandl is not for it to be a book to learn bowing. If it was where we all learned our bowing from we would, of course, be extremely, extremely lacking players. It is meant to be a course of study to familiarize the student with the left hand. It makes no contention, that I can see, to the contrary. It is simply a method to familiarize the student with playing in all keys and in all positions on the instrument. Is it so hard for us just to accept it for what it is?

Well, I don't know what it claims to do or not - I'm not sure that is the point either.

What is a bigger point, is that for a 'method' that obviously such a huge majority of players start with, at closer exmaimation, it's not quite as comprehensive as some thought.

To give so little thought to the bow for that long in a player's development is an extreme disservice. Virtually all of our sound comes from the bow does it not? A pretty vital link in the chain which deserves some pretty concentrated attention. So what if you know your way around every note on the bass if you can't make a good sound, or a best, only one kind of sound for a very long time?

I know dozens of young players that can play all over the fingerboard really well, yet have very little true command of the bow. They can play Koussevitsky like nobody's business, yet they struggle to play the trio from Beethoven 5.

Anyway, as has been stated before, one book or method alone is not nearly thorough enough. However, I think a book that somehow seems to have become the primary starting point for the vast majority of bassists, it ignores some pretty fundamental concepts for a very long time. A lot of players never even get around to using much else.

 

[Samie]

I found "77 baroque Bass lines" bye L.Drew. I spend about an hour and a half just checking the tunes out. Not hard at ll. Finally bowing is fun again!!

I think I will be using this book to practice sound, expresion and interpretation. I want my arco to sound musical first, even if I only play the first 3 positions.

I have gone through Montag L. on my own and I halfway through simandl with my teacher. My arco still sounds terribly unmusical, just notes. :scowl: enough of that!! Its a beautiful instrument, I want to enjoy it.

Once a week I will prepare my simandl lesson with my teacher, because I still feel its an important book. It should take about 20 minutes.

The rest of my arco time I will spend it working on them baroque tunes, maybe I can actually make them sound decent someday.

Simandl might be a great book but it is terribly outdated. Musicians now seek pleasure not just discipline.

 

[jneuman]

To give so little thought to the bow for that long in a player's development is an extreme disservice. Virtually all of our sound comes from the bow does it not? A pretty vital link in the chain which deserves some pretty concentrated attention. So what if you know your way around every note on the bass if you can't make a good sound, or a best, only one kind of sound for a very long time?

I know dozens of young players that can play all over the fingerboard really well, yet have very little true command of the bow. They can play Koussevitsky like nobody's business, yet they struggle to play the trio from Beethoven 5.

Rob

I would have to agree with that. I guess Simandl felt that the first thing to learn is the left hand until that's solid, and then do bowings. I used page 69 of Simandl to learn bowing, and I thought that was pretty good, but even now, I find myself more secure in the fingering than in bow strokes. I think if I were planning a lesson program, I would definitely suplement Simandl with the open string bowing excercises out of Bille at least and would probably throw in some Nanny as well. Some of the Nanny open position excersices are a real workout. Lucas Drew's notes to Simandl recomend that the teacher throw in slurs and other bowing variations to the excercies right away to get the students right hand more developed. I think, in general, that the German bow school is lacking in bow training and is more focussed on punching out solid basslines rather than playing lyrically.

Jon