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Double Bass Simandl v. II: How much is enough?

D

Dr. Jake

Jul 1, 2008
60
0
Oakland, CA
#1
I work with a teacher - a very good one - so I have every reason to be confident that I'm on the correct path. But today I came close to bass smashing frustration trying to learn an exercise from Simandl v. II (Cm).

Now, my interest is jazz. I don't doubt that arco classical pieces help build technical prowess. But given limited practice time (day job), I'm beginning to worry about the amount of time I should devote to the bow.

So, jazz bassists: If you had 1-2 hours a day to practice, how much time would you reserve for arco classical pieces?
 
#2
All my practise time is for classical pieces arco. (But I have practised a lot of jazz over the years). I would recommend any bass player to dive in deep with classical technique on the bass, you'll never regret it. If you practise efficiently, you can get a lot done in an hour or two a day. Maybe 1 hour for classical on a consistent basis, and the rest for jazz?
 
#3
Dr. Jake said:
So, jazz bassists: If you had 1-2 hours a day to practice, how much time would you reserve for arco classical pieces?
Click to expand...

1-2 hours.

The question is do you see yourself using a bow in a performance situation? Bowing for the sake of technique is a lot of time which could be better used. Try bowing your transcribed solos, jazz heads etc. Melodic trumpet solos are great to bow. Or do you want to be the "last note of a ballad" arco player?
 
#4
The 2nd Simandl book is indeed boring. Although there is some good stuff in it of course. But it isn't the most musical book on the planet.

I was practicing in this book before but my new (classical) teacher hates the Simandl books and gave me so much more musical arco material. This way you have fun and practice your technique and musicality.

That would be my suggestion.
 
#5
Dr. Jake said:
I work with a teacher - a very good one - so I have every reason to be confident that I'm on the correct path. But today I came close to bass smashing frustration trying to learn an exercise from Simandl v. II (Cm).
Click to expand...

When an exercise is difficult, it's usually because it's forcing you to do something new, which is a good thing for technique. I'd advise practicing the exercise very slowly and trying to make it sound musical. Lee Luvisi, a great concert pianist from around these parts, used to make all of his students practice all of their fast pieces as if they were adagios for a period of time before they could even think about bringing them up to tempo. By the time they were brought up to tempo, they were very musical.

Now, my interest is jazz. I don't doubt that arco classical pieces help build technical prowess. But given limited practice time (day job), I'm beginning to worry about the amount of time I should devote to the bow.
Click to expand...

This is a personal decision, and one that should be made as an agreement between you and your teacher. With that said, what is your take on the division of time you'd like to be doing if your teacher were not part of the equation?

So, jazz bassists: If you had 1-2 hours a day to practice, how much time would you reserve for arco classical pieces?
Click to expand...

Without trying to ignite yet another flame war:

If I had two hours to practice every day, I'd be ecstatic. As is, I warm up with the bow for about 10 minutes, slow scales only and maybe a ballad melody if I feel like it, then do the rest of my practicing playing with my fingers since that's what my interest is. I do spend a fair amount of practice time on technique and playing classical music (usually Bach of some form or another), but since I'm a jazz player by nature I do this practicing pizz in an effort to bring some of the melodic sensibility and articulation nuances of the music into the sphere of the music I play in my real life musical performances outside of the practice room.

If I had a teacher who I respected and who I felt was really helping me to become a better player, I would talk to him/her about this issue and find out their ideas on the matter. There's nothing wrong with practicing both styles, even back to back, as long as you are practicing each well. Good luck.
 
#6
I'd like to add that it's not quantity of time that counts it's quality. If you divide your practice time up effectively you'll get better results without frustration.

I remember an article in an issue of Double Bassist magazine suggesting that one divides practice time into 20 minute intervals with an alarm. When the alarm goes off you switch to the next stage of practice regardless of where you're at with it. The next day you pick up where you left off. I found this method very helpful, especially since I was feeling a lot of the same frustrations you're feeling when I was in school. The next part is learning to focus your practice time, when you find a problem area in a piece you're working on focus on that area until you nail it, then go back three measures and play into it, then start over. It surprises me that many students will just go back to the top when mistakes are made, only to remake the same mistake.
 
#7
i agree that the simandl can seem lacking in musicality. this can make it a little more frustrating than it needs to be IMO. a great book for arco study is abe luboff's edition of sevcik etudes for bass. these etudes are very musical and fun to play. it may be worthwhile to take a break from simandl and do something else for a little while. you can go back to the simandl later if you really want to work through that book. personally, i never finished either vol of simandl and i see no reason to ever work out of those books again. don't get me wrong, the simandl set me up with fine technique and i use it for my students now. i just think there are better things out there after you reach a certain point.
 
#8
The many advantages of practising with a bow can't be overestimated.
On the other hand, learning jazz as a musical idiom takes a lot of working time, and if your goal is to become a jazz musician, your road should go towards that end, even if not necessarily on a really straight line.
22 years ago I had only 50/60 minutes per day for practicing, and that was after 9 hours of woking on a company's storage facility and 2 hours of commuting on train AND bus. My way (MY way) involved a very defined use of time: 5 minutes of this, 8 minutes of that, 5 minutes of that other thing, a 2 minute break, etcetera. That was for a year and a half, and it worked for me.
 
#9
I think about 95% of practice should be arco. You should learn all melodies of tunes you really want to know arco, play the arpeggios of the chords arco and even the root movements arco.
I have NEVER been a fan of Simandl book 2, book 1 is the foundation of my practice and teaching but book 2 is A. too out of date and B. too damn hard!

I use Petrracchi for study and teaching the upper register as well as actual works by Bach, Bottesinni and Fauré.

Petrracchi is a lot more modern and useful and Simandl book 2 is so hard, you may as well just learn Bach is which is even harder but at least it is Bach!!!
 
#10
Chris Fitzgerald said:
When an exercise is difficult, it's usually because it's forcing you to do something new, which is a good thing for technique. I'd advise practicing the exercise very slowly and trying to make it sound musical. Lee Luvisi, a great concert pianist from around these parts, used to make all of his students practice all of their fast pieces as if they were adagios for a period of time before they could even think about bringing them up to tempo. By the time they were brought up to tempo, they were very musical.



This is a personal decision, and one that should be made as an agreement between you and your teacher. With that said, what is your take on the division of time you'd like to be doing if your teacher were not part of the equation?



Without trying to ignite yet another flame war:

If I had two hours to practice every day, I'd be ecstatic. As is, I warm up with the bow for about 10 minutes, slow scales only and maybe a ballad melody if I feel like it, then do the rest of my practicing playing with my fingers since that's what my interest is. I do spend a fair amount of practice time on technique and playing classical music (usually Bach of some form or another), but since I'm a jazz player by nature I do this practicing pizz in an effort to bring some of the melodic sensibility and articulation nuances of the music into the sphere of the music I play in my real life musical performances outside of the practice room.

If I had a teacher who I respected and who I felt was really helping me to become a better player, I would talk to him/her about this issue and find out their ideas on the matter. There's nothing wrong with practicing both styles, even back to back, as long as you are practicing each well. Good luck.
Click to expand...

+1.
 
#12
With due respect for our mod and his playing - and it does work for him - he sounds great - it is unorthodox advice.
You will be taking a lot of chances by following it. There are many ways to do things and risky decisions can end up panning out - some people smoke in their 90s without health issues, people make it in life by dropping out of school, people even survive the jump off the Golden Gate bridge from time to time, etc.
I am not doubting the fact that there are great players who didn't bother to practice arco, I am however, doubting it as ANY sort of advice to players in their early stages.

If you want to be a good double bass player the party line is to practice arco and work with a teacher out of the proven classical methods, preferably a few of them.
That is the most sure way to get there.
 
#13
damonsmith said:
With due respect for our mod and his playing - and it does work for him - he sounds great - it is unorthodox advice.
You will be taking a lot of chances by following it. There are many ways to do things and risky decisions can end up panning out - some people smoke in their 90s without health issues, people make it in life by dropping out of school, people even survive the jump off the Golden Gate bridge from time to time, etc.
I am not doubting the fact that there are great players who didn't bother to practice arco, I am however, doubting it as ANY sort of advice to playing in their early stages.

If you want to be a good double bass player the party line is to practice arco and work with a teacher out of the proven classical methods, preferably a few of them.
That is the most sure way to get there.
Click to expand...

Wow, learning double bass pizz only and jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge are on the same level. Wow!
 
#14
Yes indeed because if you play double bass with a stick in your hand with the a string tied to something on the other end then there's a better chance of playing in tune, and in you jump off the Golden Gate bridge with a stick in one hand with a string tied to something on the other end then you have a better chance of surviving IF the string is properly secured so always adjust the tension on your bow BEFORE you practice.

Whew.
 
#17
Damon - thanks for the backhanded props, but I gotta say that you really crack me up sometimes. The Golden Gate bridge? Really? :D :D :D I promise I'm not suicidal, nor do I encourage others to be so. I just believe that practicing the craft you want to attain makes you better at that craft. Most of my students at the U choose to study arco with Sid King in addition to their jazz studies. It's a choice I recommend, but it's still their choice to make. :)
 
#18
Two things to add -
1. they don't change where the notes are when you play either jazz or classical
2. I've only started really working on playing arco and it has had a tremendous impact on how I phrase, the depth of sound I get pizz, the intent of what I play.
 
#19
damonsmith said:
I think about 95% of practice should be arco. You should learn all melodies of tunes you really want to know arco, play the arpeggios of the chords arco and even the root movements arco.
I have NEVER been a fan of Simandl book 2, book 1 is the foundation of my practice and teaching but book 2 is A. too out of date and B. too damn hard!

I use Petrracchi for study and teaching the upper register as well as actual works by Bach, Bottesinni and Fauré.

Petrracchi is a lot more modern and useful and Simandl book 2 is so hard, you may as well just learn Bach is which is even harder but at least it is Bach!!!
Click to expand...

+1. Especially Petrracchi & Bach
I might make that percentage 85% arco if you're absolutely not interested in performing with the bow, or if you're brand-new to jazz pizz technique.
 
#20
I practise 90% arco and 10% pizzicato. Although arco playing is really good for your technique all the time you spend on classical is also time you not spend on jazz.
I notice that my arco playing is keeping me away from practising jazz. For example walking bass line practise. But you so can also practise jazz bowing. But somehow I tend more towards practising classical with the bow instead of jazz bowing.

Because I play electric bass and classical guitar all my life I already know how to play pizzicato and I don't have much problems with transferring it to the DB. So I rather practice something that is/was completely new to me and that is arco.
 

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