Double Bass Simandl v. II: How much is enough?

[Fletcher Lanning]

IMO, you gain plenty from practicing pizz as well; but arco forces you to do two things that are not immediately noticable when playing pizz but will give you a better sound.

Arco lets you hear your intonation in a much clearer way than playing pizz so it will create much better positional knowledge.

Arco forces you to hold your left hand in position for the full duration of the note and makes you think about your shifts as a single motion over a specific period of time which will make your pizz lines sound more connected and allow your bass to sustain for the full note duration.

I guess, from my perspective, playing arco really brought to light any and all left hand issues that I did/do have so I can focus in and really clean it up.

 

[Pirkka]

Hi everybody. What is your opinion about of this book, I just bought it:

http://www.amazon.com/Music-Minus-One-Double-Bass/dp/1596156368

It's all those 30 etudes with piano accompaniment, with and without bass. Before I got this book I had played like four first etudes and then from here and there the book. I think it made playing this etudes feel much more musical and fun.

Cheers!

 

[Nathan Parker]

I find Nathan's input to be sarcastic and ironic in a deadpan kind of way, and I agree with him here.

Bingo. Sarcasm for the win!

 

[damonsmith]

The hardline tone I take is in terms of responsible advice to give. I respect Chris, PW, Wilbur Ware and so many others who did not take that route. That is totally fine.
Anyone should do what works for them. What I have a problem with is giving the advice to practice pizz, not what anyone does at home with their instrument.
It becomes far more about the person justifying their own practice than what is best for the OP.

To Damon and others that claim the only way to practice is arco. What changes between pizz and arco that make you feel this way? Is it not possible to play or learn to play in tune pizz? What physically changes between the two styles?

I just don't get where you're coming from and want to explore this question further with you (in an attempt to clarify the dogmatic tone this discussion can get).

The fundamental tone rings purely for one single vibration pizz after it just clouds with overtones - arco extends the fudamental tone.
We have been over this many times.

When someone says they play in tune "better" pizz than arco, it is untrue. As Ed says, the location of the notes do not change.
Arco = truth of the note.

 

[Paul Warburton]

I agree with everybody here.

 

[Marcus Johnson]

Me too, and I haven't even read the thread.

 

[Paul Warburton]

Don't.

I'm tryin' to figure why Damon stuck me between DURRL and Wilbur.
What's up with that?

 

[FMartin]

T What I have a problem with is giving the advice to practice pizz, not what anyone does at home with their instrument.

I've been advised to not neglect pizz practice in either clinics or the occassional private lesson by bassists such as Ron Carter and Marc Johnson -among several others of maybe lesser world fame- in order to improve control of dynamics, to get a steadier sound, to have more right hand stamina (needed if you have to play fast tempo for a long period of time), etc.

IMHO and IME, pizz playing is not something that will take care of itself -as probably just about nothing in technique will- and I'm sure bassists like those two aforementioned, as well as others such as NHØP, Patitucci, McBride, Peacock, Holland, Avi Cohen, Danielsson, etc. didn't get their command of the instrument when playing pizz just by practicing arco and taking pizz for granted, although they've surely spent a great deal of time bowing. But maybe it's just me. As I'm not a talented, gifted player technique-wise, so I have to work on each aspect of my playing, and that includes both arco and pizz, although it's been years now that I don't do any particular pizz exercise, and I let everyday musical challenges and interests dictate my pizz practice.

Of course, what a musician practice changes acording to the stage he/she is at as a player, not to mention his/her ultimate music goals (which can change along the way too).

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Don't.

I'm tryin' to figure why Damon stuck me between DURRL and Wilbur.
What's up with that?

You were born before me, but after Wilber? Alphabetical by last name? least hair to most hair?

 

[Marcus Johnson]

I'm tryin' to figure why Damon stuck me between DURRL and Wilbur.

That's quite an image.

 

[JtheJazzMan]

I just look at pizz and arco like 2 different brushes for a painting.

Walking crotchets all the time is all well and good, but try picking up some Renaud Garcia tunes, or NHOP solos, or some of Brian Brombergs solos and signature licks and you realise no amount of arco practice will help you get your RH pizz technique in order. That is, if you want to pursue that. Otherwise, crotchet away happily.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

IMHO and IME, pizz playing is not something that will take care of itself -as probably just about nothing in technique will- and I'm sure bassists like those two aforementioned, as well as others such as NHØP, Patitucci, McBride, Peacock, Holland, Avi Cohen, Danielsson, etc. didn't get their command of the instrument when playing pizz just by practicing arco and taking pizz for granted, although they've surely spent a great deal of time bowing.

Well spoken, and I agree. I don't want to rekindle an old flame war, but when I practice pizz - which is most of the time - I'm practicing as much or more for my right hand as my left. Certainly when I lay off, it seems to be the right hand that loses its touch first, loses its calluses first, and throws the timing of everything out of whack. I have a deep and sincere appreciation for the balance and touch it takes to play with a bow, and I listen to recordings of bowed music - from violin to cello to bass - all the time. I also feel that the right hand playing pizz has its own paradigms and techniques of balance and feel, and that if i want to improve my technique, articulation, tone production, and control in this area, I need to practice in this way.

I've always felt that if you want to get good at something, it pays to practice that very thing you want to improve at. If you want to improve your tennis game, I advise you to practice tennis. If you want to improve your racquetball game, practice racquetball. If you want to be better at racquet sports as a whole, practice both. (IMO, IME, YMMV, and any other anagram disclaimers that may apply. )

 

[barbarbass]

I think about 95% of practice should be arco. You should learn all melodies of tunes you really want to know arco, play the arpeggios of the chords arco and even the root movements arco.

This gentleman speaks the truth. I have found my pizzicato technique tends to take care of itself (or even improve) as long as I'm putting in the bowing time.

As far as Simandl, I'm only familiar with Book I, and the Thirty Etudes. I like some of the Marcello Sonatas. I've been playing some of Schubert's lieder (and other opera pieces) for bass voice -- I figure that teaches me musicality with the bow.

 

[Les Fret]

I've been advised to not neglect pizz practice in either clinics or the occassional private lesson by bassists such as Ron Carter and Marc Johnson -among several others of maybe lesser world fame- in order to improve control of dynamics, to get a steadier sound, to have more right hand stamina (needed if you have to play fast tempo for a long period of time), etc.

IMHO and IME, pizz playing is not something that will take care of itself -as probably just about nothing in technique will- and I'm sure bassists like those two aforementioned, as well as others such as NHØP, Patitucci, McBride, Peacock, Holland, Avi Cohen, Danielsson, etc. didn't get their command of the instrument when playing pizz just by practicing arco and taking pizz for granted, although they've surely spent a great deal of time bowing. But maybe it's just me. As I'm not a talented, gifted player technique-wise, so I have to work on each aspect of my playing, and that includes both arco and pizz, although it's been years now that I don't do any particular pizz exercise, and I let everyday musical challenges and interests dictate my pizz practice.

Of course, what a musician practice changes acording to the stage he/she is at as a player, not to mention his/her ultimate music goals (which can change along the way too).

best post so far!
You yourself know what is important to you and that is what you have to practice. Arco helps a lot for the left hand (intonation) but playing pizz and listening carefully if you are in tune has the same effect.
The right hand pizzicato needs to be practiced separately as mentioned before.
In the last six months my focus was on arco but I also practice pizz, (but less). Just so that I don't loose touch and callouses

 

[Michael Case]

The hardline tone I take is in terms of responsible advice to give. I respect Chris, PW, Wilbur Ware and so many others who did not take that route. That is totally fine.
Anyone should do what works for them. What I have a problem with is giving the advice to practice pizz, not what anyone does at home with their instrument.
It becomes far more about the person justifying their own practice than what is best for the OP.



The fundamental tone rings purely for one single vibration pizz after it just clouds with overtones - arco extends the fudamental tone.
We have been over this many times.

When someone says they play in tune "better" pizz than arco, it is untrue. As Ed says, the location of the notes do not change.
Arco = truth of the note.

I just can't buy this, you quote Ed saying that the location notes doesn't change, but then say the only way to play in tune is arco. Well if a note is in the same location arco and pizz what's the difference?

I do practice arco and am not convinced that it's the only way to play in tune. I do believe it has given an edge to my playing in regards to left hand technique, but it doesn't help my right hand OR intonation. An out of tune note is out whether it's plucked or bowed. I feel that you're overlooking a major part of the equation and that's the TRAINING that one gets. Studying the instrument with a qualified teacher (which usually involves arco study) is really what gets one playing in tune. You don't just hand someone a bow and a bass and say "use this it'll get you playing in tune."

 

[Paul Warburton]

Study and train all you want....arco, pizz whatever.
Good intonation boils down to two things in the end, IMO.
Ears and muscle memory.

 

[Michael Case]

Study and train all you want....arco, pizz whatever.
Good intonation boils down to two things in the end, IMO.
Ears and muscle memory.

This is the real truth.

 

[Paul Warburton]

I was right, maybe, twice in what?.....over 7,000 posts.

Thanks, Michael. I really needed that.
Yay!!!!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I was right, maybe, twice in what?.....over 7,000 posts.

Thanks, Michael. I really needed that.
Yay!!!!

Don't sell yourself short, Paul. By my count that was the third time. Your percentage is going up!

 

[damonsmith]

I just can't buy this, you quote Ed saying that the location notes doesn't change, but then say the only way to play in tune is arco. Well if a note is in the same location arco and pizz what's the difference?

I do practice arco and am not convinced that it's the only way to play in tune. I do believe it has given an edge to my playing in regards to left hand technique, but it doesn't help my right hand OR intonation. An out of tune note is out whether it's plucked or bowed. I feel that you're overlooking a major part of the equation and that's the TRAINING that one gets. Studying the instrument with a qualified teacher (which usually involves arco study) is really what gets one playing in tune. You don't just hand someone a bow and a bass and say "use this it'll get you playing in tune."

It is certainly not the only way - as I said, I do believe it is the only advice to give - as I also said.
There are no silver bullets or guarantees. History says it is the fastest way - when coupled with a good teacher.

Again, I am not arguing with anyone's process - only their advice.
And sure, pizz shouldn't be neglected, I deal with it all the time myself - after arco practice.