Double Bass Simandl v. II: How much is enough?

[damonsmith]

This is misinformation. Any acoustic engineer will tell you it is only the harmonics, which are the naturally occurring notes in the overtone series, the same ones in brass or wind instruments that are not "clouded with overtones," every closed note is clouded. So unless you're only bowing harmonics this is physically untrue.



Again I disagree, the different tuning systems used in music will alter where the notes fall on the fingerboard. Also, depending on their function in the harmony. Try this with your piano player buddy sometime. Have him play a chord, then tune up a chord tone, say the b in a g chord. Then have him play a c chord and see if you don't alter the note when it functions a Major 7th. Then an E chord then a B chord, and so on and so forth.

While I agree that practicing arco can bring faster results in your style of music, if you are playing pizz it is equally important. If you're playing only pizz styles it is more important. It makes no sense to spend 95% of your time playing arco and then try to blow a pizz solo over Giant Steps at 305 bpm. Intonation comes from big ears ready to listen, understanding of your function in the harmony and your willingness to be flexible to the music. Not a stick with hair on it. Dogmatic opinions only put a strangle hold on music. Even if its so called free music. My 2 ¢

There is lots of hair-splitting that can be done but part of the assumption is that most students with a jazz interest are going to spend lots of time playing pizz no matter what is said!

Prior experience is also a big thing, for example Chris spent a lot of time as a pianist which was obviously huge for the ears seems to be central to his approach.
As far as the fundamental/harmonics explaination I obviouly understand only harmonics are pure tones - I was just trying to condense it without consulting my Hemholz book!

 

[Eric Swanson]

My limited experience is that it depends on what one wants to do. When I was playing more I spent most of my time studying and practicing arco, with mostly technical exercises to keep my pizz strong, then using pizz, primarily, on gigs/rehearsals.

Upside: my intonation was more fearless and more accurate than many folks I have heard

Downside: I wasn't building my jazz repertoire when I was playing Bach, practicing arco technical exercises, etc.

These days, as a dabbler, I make sure that I touch both when I practice, but tend to alternate emphasis; one day I do more arco, the next day I do more pizz. Sort of a cycle of neglect, in my case...

For me, the more fundamental consideration is whether I am truly singing through my left arm/hand when I am playing the bass, or playing more mechanically, sort of moving my body and waiting to hear what comes out. If I am singing through my arm/hand into the fingerboard, this does much for my intonation and musical confidence. After that, its mostly about developing/strengthening muscular memory...

 

[LM Bass]

I know there are better players than me on this thread, so I am adding my own grain of salt to this comment-

You don't know what the benefit of studying arco will be until you do it. Those that have done it, know why. I am very grateful for my teachers.

 

[koricancowboy]

There is lots of hair-splitting that can be done but part of the assumption is that most students with a jazz interest are going to spend lots of time playing pizz no matter what is said!

Prior experience is also a big thing, for example Chris spent a lot of time as a pianist which was obviously huge for the ears seems to be central to his approach.
As far as the fundamental/harmonics explaination I obviouly understand only harmonics are pure tones - I was just trying to condense it without consulting my Hemholz book!

Fair enough but just making up facts to prove a point is not exactly awesome. Thought I'd point it out. You said you obviously understand

that only harmonics are pure tones - I was just trying to condense it without consulting my Hemholz book!.

But you said something that is completely counter intuitive to the facts. How is that obvious? What is obvious is you skewed the facts in order to prove a point. Partials are partials, they don't change. Ever. Truth is in the details. If you need to bend it to prove a point it makes the whole point invalid.

In regards to the split in practice, pizz and arco intonation are different and both should be addressed equally. If you need corroboration try the experiment I mentioned in the other post I made.

 

[damonsmith]

Fair enough but just making up facts to prove a point is not exactly awesome. Thought I'd point it out. You said you obviously understand But you said something that is completely counter intuitive to the facts. How is that obvious? What is obvious is you skewed the facts in order to prove a point. Partials are partials, they don't change. Ever. Truth is in the details. If you need to bend it to prove a point it makes the whole point invalid.

In regards to the split in practice, pizz and arco intonation are different and both should be addressed equally. If you need corroboration try the experiment I mentioned in the other post I made.

I never said the bow produces a pure tone, I just tried to sum things up in a quick sentence without going into a long explaination about the overtone series, the "obvious" part is that so much of my work depends on understanding how the overtones function and that you know at least a bit about my work.
A rich arco tone has a lot to do with how the overtones are manipulated, it can certainly get clouded, make subtones and multi phonics or favor the upper partials over the fundamental.

The point is the bow can produce a sustained sound with whatever fundamental to overtone ratio you can manage where any note played pizz changes with each vibration.

The change pizz notes go through make them less valuable (but certainly not entirely useless) for daily, foundational intonation practice.

The longer answer is that every little detail of any music you want play well needs to be dealt with. The chord tuning you suggest is in fact spot on - and can even be heard working with a tuner and doing triple stops on the bass.
I am not saying you never need to touch the strings with your right hand -I am saying most common advice is to practice with the bow and do it a lot, and since the bow, like singing, is so often avoided most experienced teachers over-emphasize it.

I personally divide my practice time into working on the bass, working on music and playing, something like uptempo walking would be in the later sections - but if something like that is important to you, sure you have to put the time in.

I personally would not reccomend to anyone working on western music on the double bass to have a practice session without the bow, that is adivce my teachers gave me, which I passed on to you, which seems to have panned out for you!

 

[koricancowboy]

Great. I agree with most of what you're saying now but it is a different tune than you were humming earlier. Take care.

 

[Roy Vogt]

IME, bow work really helps me to center in my intonation and that's a very good thing regardless of style, etc. Simandl II is a challenging set of etudes, but rewarding if you think of the exercises as a journey and not a destination. I've been gradually remaking my technique from Simandl to Rabbath and practicing Rabbath without bow work is lethal to your intonation, IMHO.
I've also used The Improviser's Bass Method (Sher) and The Evolving Bassist (Reid) extensively with the bow.
If you have a good knowledge of Jazz Theory and Technique already, I'd use the bow 80% of the time. If you're new to Jazz, I might adjust it to a 60/40% mix. Regardless, I'd make the bow work the first part of my practice session and then go to Jazz pizz.

 

[damonsmith]

Great. I agree with most of what you're saying now but it is a different tune than you were humming earlier. Take care.

Not really, just more and less involved answers. My short answer to this question is still and always practice with the bow.

There are always other ways to look at things, lots of situations are different, we are all different little snowflakes, etc.
There are things that work sometimes and things that work most of the time.
It is not so much being inflexible or dogmatic, it is just condensing everything to answer the OP's question with simple clarity.

 

[colcifer]

Practice whatever you feel you lack most. When my reading gets rusty I pull out the cello suites and start playing. When my ear gets rusty I put on a Second Quintet record and start playing.

My advice about arco v. pizzicato is to practice the latter just enough to keep proficient; arco gets rusty very quickly.