Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Double Bass Simandl v. II: How much is enough?
- Thread starter Dr. Jake
- Start date
You missed the point of the comment. It wasn't that arco is the best way to play in tune, it's that arco is the best way to LEARN to play in tune. Arco sustains the fundamental in a much more prominent way that allows you to really hear the note until your muscles really lock in on that position.
EDIT: That's four.
I'll give you 3.5
I see, still don't get what your point is, but I see what you're saying. If the fundamental is in tune then note is in tune isn't it? How and why does sustaining the fundamental help?
It helps you to find where the fundamental is truly in tune. A sustained fundamental is much easier to truly hear and fine tune than one that is gone in miliseconds. Practice with the bow helps build the muscle memory that lets you find that position pizz. So again the note is in the same place pizz or arco, but its easier to hear when it is extended with the bow.
Well put it this way, Ive heard far more professional bass players get away with inaccurate intonation playing pizz than arco. Moreso when the player treats the bass as more of a percussive or rhythmic force, and the actual pitch of the note is just "good enough". Cant really get away with sloppy intonation with arco.
IMHO YUMYMUMY
IMHO YUMYMUMY
So do you play jazz gigs arco? I'd like to hear how those walking lines sound.
Sustaining the fundamental helps you hear it long enough to locate it clearly, then you develop muscle memory around it.
After just a few vibrations pizz, you start to get flat (or 'just') harmonics that cloud the fundamental pitch.
The upside is that muddy intonation in the bass doesn't ruin records or careers!
I still think we should try!
Define "jazz gigs", but yes, solo bass, chamber music, jazz/classical/modern electronic stuff with plenty of arco or pizz as a bass or melodic role is my "thing".
I think I specified in this thread, and probably another one on the same topic, that I think playing arco only for the sake of practice is a waste of the effort which arco requires.
Not actually. The strongest overtone is the octave, which vibrates at exactly twice the frequency of the fundamental - so it isn't flat at all.
Here's the counter reasoning to the "practicing arco for intonation is the best and only real advice to give" argument: When you're playing pizz, you need to learn to hear the center of the pitch quickly. I still maintain that the best way to practice hearing the center of a pizz note is to practice hearing the center of a pizz note.
Again, let it be said that I have never discouraged anyone from playing arco, or said anything negative about arco practice in any way. I encourage my students to do it if they wish, especially those who struggle with intonation issues. Why especially those? For the very reasons mentioned in this thread - because I believe it takes a different and more difficult mode of hearing (namely, quicker) to hear and adjust intonation pizz as opposed to arco. If they seem to be struggling to hear the intonation when playing pizz, arco is a great way for them to learn to hone in on the vibration. It's also great for a million other reasons, none of which I am arguing or would argue with. But if your musical calling/goal is to play pizz and play it in tune, you need to spend a considerable amount of time practicing doing exactly that. IMO YMMV IME SSSSDBTSS etc.
In My Opinion. Your Mileage May Vary. In My Experience. She Sells Sea Shells Down By The Sea Shore. 
Right, but a person will get that when working on music, rehearsing, private sessions and gigs. I mean, seriously Chris, your stance is counter to a far longer list of greats than not and you know it.
I won't argue that it seems to work for you, but I think you are really just trying to justify your own process - where I am am just stating the party line in the best interest of the OP and other young players.
You are a great player and your music speaks for itself.
As would anyone doing the same thing arco basically keep in some kind of shape and sharpen their ears by doing all of the above. But gigging, rehearsing, and playing sessions is no substitute for practicing. Surely no one would argue that you can't improve on a craft by continuing to practice it off the bandstand. If gigging and rehearsing gets you to and maintains a certain level, then doing that and practicing the same skill sets on top of it gets you to a higher level. That's all I'm saying. Honestly.
I'm not trying to counter anything other than the statement that practicing pizz is a waste of time for people who play primarily pizz, which - with all due respect - I find completely illogical.
Again, thank you. You are also a great player, very devoted to the music that you play and play well, and I freely admit that I don't have your skill set. But I honestly feel that the only thing I'm trying to justify here is my right to speak what I feel to be the truth - the same right that you have, and that any other member of the forum has. You are free to say that you think practicing pizz is a waste of time, and I am free to say that I find the notion that practicing only arco will give you good right hand jazz pizz technique by itself to be at best seriously flawed. As long as we both do that respectfully - which is far as I'm concerned we have - then it's all good.
I just want to be sure that I'm not being characterized as disparaging arco playing in any way. I'm not against arco practice, I'm for pizz practice.
As would anyone doing the same thing arco basically keep in some kind of shape and sharpen their ears by doing all of the above. But gigging, rehearsing, and playing sessions is no substitute for practicing. Surely no one would argue that you can't improve on a craft by continuing to practice it off the bandstand. If gigging and rehearsing gets you to and maintains a certain level, then doing that and practicing the same skill sets on top of it gets you to a higher level. That's all I'm saying. Honestly.
I'm not trying to counter anything other than the statement that practicing pizz is a waste of time for people who play primarily pizz, which - with all due respect - I find completely illogical.
Again, thank you. You are also a great player, very devoted to the music that you play and play well, and I freely admit that I don't have your skill set. But I honestly feel that the only thing I'm trying to justify here is my right to speak what I feel to be the truth - the same right that you have, and that any other member of the forum has. You are free to say that you think practicing pizz is a waste of time, and I am free to say that I find the notion that practicing only arco will give you good right hand jazz pizz technique by itself to be at best seriously flawed. As long as we both do that respectfully - which is far as I'm concerned we have - then it's all good.
I just want to be sure that I'm not being characterized as disparaging arco playing in any way. I'm not against arco practice, I'm for pizz practice.
Again, the only point I am making is that your stance is unorthodox and that is fine for you, but not the best for most.
I don't think practicing pizz is a waste of time - think it is the longer harder road and should be done in conjunction with lots of arco.
This is not my personal opinion - it was handed down to me by many of the greatest bassists alive.
Red Mitchell studied arco but later in life put down the bow and no one really had a wider and warmer range of pizzicato than he did.
Is the study of arco just a result of historic chance? The double bass has been an arco instrument for much longer than it's secondary role as a pizzicato instrument and as a result the classic study is arco. Could it be possible that there are plenty of contemporary bassist who play AND practice only arco and do it well and in tune?
Of course you can say that we'd know who these people are if they are so good, but I say not really. So much of this music and the people who play exists in the shadows that we will probably never know everyone playing it. We only know each other through this site.
Of course you can say that we'd know who these people are if they are so good, but I say not really. So much of this music and the people who play exists in the shadows that we will probably never know everyone playing it. We only know each other through this site.
What did you think would happen?
This is a pretty big subject 'round these here parts.
This is misinformation. Any acoustic engineer will tell you it is only the harmonics, which are the naturally occurring notes in the overtone series, the same ones in brass or wind instruments that are not "clouded with overtones," every closed note is clouded. So unless you're only bowing harmonics this is physically untrue.
Again I disagree, the different tuning systems used in music will alter where the notes fall on the fingerboard. Also, depending on their function in the harmony. Try this with your piano player buddy sometime. Have him play a chord, then tune up a chord tone, say the b in a g chord. Then have him play a c chord and see if you don't alter the note when it functions a Major 7th. Then an E chord then a B chord, and so on and so forth.
While I agree that practicing arco can bring faster results in your style of music, if you are playing pizz it is equally important. If you're playing only pizz styles it is more important. It makes no sense to spend 95% of your time playing arco and then try to blow a pizz solo over Giant Steps at 305 bpm. Intonation comes from big ears ready to listen, understanding of your function in the harmony and your willingness to be flexible to the music. Not a stick with hair on it. Dogmatic opinions only put a strangle hold on music. Even if its so called free music. My 2 ¢
