Sizing up a Neck - quality evaluation

[Turnaround]

Luthiers working on violin family instruments seek out wood that has actually been split from the log instead of sawing it so that there is no runout and grain is straight etc.

I asked one of the bass makers I know well if he split the wood for his necks from logs so that the neck would follow the grain and have no runout. He thanked me for my comment on the quality of his necks but didn't directly answer the question. I take that as a yes.

 

[Fender_Bender]

I asked one of the bass makers I know well if he split the wood for his necks from logs so that the neck would follow the grain and have no runout. He thanked me for my comment on the quality of his necks but didn't directly answer the question. I take that as a yes.

If true, kudos to him. Even a big time $$$ custom snooker cue maker (John Parris) in England does not do it. If ever a product could benefit from being split from the log, for stability reasons, it would be a cue.

 

[Turnaround]

We have lost so much from the excellence of the past. Our technology has pressed forward and in the process has lost much of the supreme wisdom of times gone by.

 

[Whippet]

There is no difference in moisture absorption based on the angle of the saw cut.
Lacquer is water resistant, not waterproof. Have you ever seen a white ring on a table top where someone left a wet glass? Water got through the lacquer finish.
A good water resistant finish will inhibit moisture exchange. Lacquer is pretty good, poly is better, oil is mediocre at best and wax is poor on its own. Glossy finishes tend to be better than satin. And in every case thicker is better. So a thick glossy poly is a good choice for a neck. Except of course that many folk hate thickly finished glossy necks. Care for a compromise anyone?

I always wondered why the table got white rings when I would put a glass of liquid with ice cubes in it. You've solved one of the mysteries in my life! I swear to god, I thought it was the cold ice cubes making the rings, but it's the condensation dripping from the glass causing the ring!

Thanks so much, for the information!

 

[Basically Bob]

... amazing thread! Thanks for taking the time and effort to do this.

It would be really cool to see an example of a “great” neck off of an old bass, like a 60s Precision, compared to an actual poor quality neck that has twisted.

Does anyone have a messed-up neck to show us?

 

[Gilmourisgod]

Lost tech case in point, the Stradavarius violins. They had advantage of old growth trees that dont exist anymore, but with all our modern engineering, nobody has managed to surpass them, though they have arguably matched them. Every wood neck is unique, but there do seem to be some "recipes" for stability, all seeming to involve multi-piece laminates, carbon rod reinforcement, or a sophisticated trussrod system like the one Bruce J. came up with. The single log theory sounds great, but requires the kind of careful eye and cherry picking only boutique level builders or dedicated amateurs have time for. Ill admit I Drank the Coolaid on CF rod/multipiece laminate/DA trussrod construction, two builds in, so far/so good. Both seem very stable with no obvious deadspots, but I cant say what combination of factors produced that result, and which just made me feel better.

 

[dune]

Awesome thread! Thanks so much!

 

[wraub]

Hello... Questions, if I may?:

What effect, if any, might chatoyance play in grain structure and/or strength?

Also, what advantage, if any, might a board from close to the center of a flat-sawn board have over one from the edge, as depicted here in the upper left of this image... I'd assume a board as depicted here would yield several necks.
Thanks!

 

[Turnaround]

There are two main cases of light refraction that you might consider in the term "chatoyance" The first is that which is caused by waves in the grain structure like this as seen from the edge of the board:

This is the effect we see in curly or flamed maple.

The other is what we see in interlinked grain where there are side by side rows in which the fibres are at an angle to each other - the first row being like //////////////
and the next adjacent row being \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
and the next ////////////////

The fist example will show bands of refracted light across the board, while the second will show ribbons running the length of the board. In both cases the effect is that of the light being reflected differently from wood grains going in different directions.
A board showing the wave variety is often less stable than a similar board that doesn't exhibit the wave pattern. Think of the wood as having been longitudinally compressed. The compression has squashed the wood forming the waves in the grain structure. When compression forces are removed the wood will tend to relax and in doing so it will distort from its initial dimensions.

The interlinked kind is more like plywood - the interlinked grains actually can contribute to the strength of the wood.

So the answer to the first question is - it depends.

As to the second question, the most stable cut of wood is the one that has the straightest lines on each surface. As you get closer to the centre of the tree the growth rings are in a tighter radius. So looking a the end grain you will see a lot of curve. That will be less dimensionally stable than something cut from the outer edges of the tree where the circumference is flatter. The worst case is a board that actually crosses the centre of the tree - that one will almost surely kink badly right at the centre.

So as I pointed out earlier, the best wood for a neck is one that really is the most boring to look at. It has closely spaced growth rings running straight and parallel to the top and side surfaces. And the growth rings shown in the end grain are close to flat and parallel to the top and bottom surfaces of the board. Waves in the grain like flamed maple are indicators of uneveness in grain structure and as such take away from the ideal for a neck in terms of stability, strength and rigidity. However, for some the beauty of a well figured piece may be worth the compromise.

 

[wraub]

This is a valuable post to me, in a very useful thread... Thank you.

If I post a pic of a neck, could I get your assessment?

There are two main cases of light refraction that you might consider in the term "chatoyance" The first is that which is caused by waves in the grain structure like this as seen from the edge of the board:
View attachment 3627733
This is the effect we see in curly or flamed maple.

The other is what we see in interlinked grain where there are side by side rows in which the fibres are at an angle to each other - the first row being like //////////////
and the next adjacent row being \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
and the next ////////////////

The fist example will show bands of refracted light across the board, while the second will show ribbons running the length of the board. In both cases the effect is that of the light being reflected differently from wood grains going in different directions.
A board showing the wave variety is often less stable than a similar board that doesn't exhibit the wave pattern. Think of the wood as having been longitudinally compressed. The compression has squashed the wood forming the waves in the grain structure. When compression forces are removed the wood will tend to relax and in doing so it will distort from its initial dimensions.

The interlinked kind is more like plywood - the interlinked grains actually can contribute to the strength of the wood.

So the answer to the first question is - it depends.

As to the second question, the most stable cut of wood is the one that has the straightest lines on each surface. As you get closer to the centre of the tree the growth rings are in a tighter radius. So looking a the end grain you will see a lot of curve. That will be less dimensionally stable than something cut from the outer edges of the tree where the circumference is flatter. The worst case is a board that actually crosses the centre of the tree - that one will almost surely kink badly right at the centre.

So as I pointed out earlier, the best wood for a neck is one that really is the most boring to look at. It has closely spaced growth rings running straight and parallel to the top and side surfaces. And the growth rings shown in the end grain are close to flat and parallel to the top and bottom surfaces of the board. Waves in the grain like flamed maple are indicators of uneveness in grain structure and as such take away from the ideal for a neck in terms of stability, strength and rigidity. However, for some the beauty of a well figured piece may be worth the compromise.

 

[Turnaround]

If I post a pic of a neck, could I get your assessment?

Better still, post a pic and give me your assessment from what you now know. I will respond.

 

[Fender_Bender]

Better still, post a pic and give me your assessment from what you now know. I will respond.

What’s your take on the suitability of Birdseye maple for a bass neck?. My instinct tells me that the more elaborately figured wood, while beautiful to look at, has to have appreciable disturbances in the grain. I’ve heard it’s no more, or less, stable than normal wood but I’d have to believe there’s potential for these grain disturbances to negatively impact strength and stiffness.
The last I heard on the subject, scientists are still debating the cause of the figuring.

 

[Turnaround]

Birdseye is an interesting figure, not only for appearance but in terms of stability. I would say it's generally more stable than flamed or quilted maple, but less so than plain unfigured maple. A few builders that I know say that it is every bit as stable as its unfigured counterpart. I'm not so sure. Maple is a wood that can react rather drastically to changes in moisture content, and often case hardens when kiln dried. When that happens it may be years before the wood suddenly distorts. I've had boards that remained beautifully flat for five years and more that really went wild once cut open. Seems that happens more often with maple that has any form of figure than the plain stuff.

 

[Fender_Bender]

Birdseye is an interesting figure, not only for appearance but in terms of stability. I would say it's generally more stable than flamed or quilted maple, but less so than plain unfigured maple. A few builders that I know say that it is every bit as stable as its unfigured counterpart. I'm not so sure. Maple is a wood that can react rather drastically to changes in moisture content, and often case hardens when kiln dried. When that happens it may be years before the wood suddenly distorts. I've had boards that remained beautifully flat for five years and more that really went wild once cut open. Seems that happens more often with maple that has any form of figure than the plain stuff.

Plain “boring” wood is the safest way to go. So kids, don’t try and make a neck out of a piece of burl .

 

[Andre678]

Wow! This thread is a perfect example of why I love Talkbass so much. I would love to build a bass one day but probably never will due to many reasons (financial, I am a renter etc...) however I am a wood worker and this knowledge will actually help me huge in my job.

I build stairs and railings for new homes. For the stairs this info will not really do much for me but I have recently started working on building railings for curved staircases and they very similar to a laminated neck and this info will help me out greatly. Building a railing seems surprisingly similar to this. Straight rails are one or two pieces but the curved rails are multi-laminate and this will really help me since the person who was training me wasn't called back and I am kinda figuring things out a bit as I go right now...

Since I have insanely higher quality standards than my company wants, this will definitely help me. Although my lead hand, supervisor and manager all say I am way too picky already so maybe not. Still they thank me when custom job comes around though and I exceed our customers expectations so I do what I know is best and they know it is the right thing.

Still, thank you @Turnaround for this thread. If I ever getting around to getting work done on my 5 string I hope you are still in the business, I could't imagine taking my bass to anyone else for real work since you are relatively local to me.

 

[pappabass]

I am starting this thread in the hope that it will help some folks understand some of the points they should consider when sizing up the neck on an instrument. There are plenty of "cheap" necks out there, imported and local. Many of them look pretty good on the surface, and you might think you are getting a bargain for under $100, but are you?

The information I am posting here applies to any instrument you are considering buying, not just replacement parts. And I am not talking just "good" or "bad" because there is a spectrum of quality at question - so I will look at "gooder" and "badder".

Within the contributors to the Pro Bench is a member who must rank as being one of the foremost authorities on neck construction. He not only makes high-quality instruments, he also builds and repairs necks for other premier builders. I am sure he will have lots to add you our discussion if he can find available time to post.

Stay tuned - I think this will be interesting.

Oh yes, the neck expert I was talking of is our friend Bruce Johnson. Search his posts on TB.

I know this article is a few years old but very informative. Sadly I never knew to look at this.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

I finished a neck through bass a year ago using flame maple that has so far proved to be quite stable. I knew going into it that the flamed maple was inherently less stable than plain material, but.... It was too beautiful not to use. In my case it was 5 piece neck with three strips of flame maple and two of walnut. Predicting the combined movement (or lack thereof) of a multipiece neck may just include too many variables, and leaves out the entire discussion of the various available adhesives. My instinct is that even highly figured wood could be effectively rendered stable by combining it in laminated construction, and that seems born out by want I see in the construction industry, where "engineered" lumber has largely supplanted plain "white" lumber for structural beams, and even wall studs. They are hugely stronger for a given span and weight, but are made in conditions of pressure and with advanced adhesives no guitar builder could easily replicate. The closest thing I've seen was the Kubicki Ex Factor basses, which had what amounted to LVL necks. I'd be curious to hear what the pros think on this, my limited sample of a couple necks built signifying nothing.

 

[Turnaround]

A lot has to do with how you mill and join the wood. Some twenty or so years ago I bought a supply of curly maple that had been rough cut, air dried for two years then kiln dried. When I bought it the boards were flat. Over the twenty years many of the boards have warped, but seem to have stabilized. That is until I cut into them. If I thickness plane them, the warp some more. Then I re-true them and cut pieces for a project - they warp again.What is happening is that in the drying process a number of internal stresses built up on the wood going in multiple directions. Those stresses found equilibrium after the initial warping in the first year or so of being bought. Then when the boards were thickness planed, the stresses were unbalanced and the wood found equilibrium again by bending. Again when the wood was further worked the stresses were again rendered uneven and more warpage occurred.

This can happen with any wood, but in my experience highly figured woods are more prone to this kind warpage than plain straight-grained woods. Laminating different woods together can help to counteract the internal stresses, but it won't eliminate them. If the wood laminations are cut, left for a while, then recut before lamination, much of the internal stresses can be relieved and the outcome may well be more stable. But we also need to be careful of laminating wood with different shrinkage rates, since these will set up their own internal stresses in the resultant material.

It's all about taking care in the choices of wood, working it well and accepting the inherent compromises.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

I'm really hoping I win the long term lottery on that neck I built! Neck through basses are somewhat.....difficult to fix if they go South, and since I built it for my son, chances are good he'd expect me to fix it!

 

[tzohn]

...
Does anyone have a messed-up neck to show us?

This neck was twisted.