Slightly different........

[buldog5151bass]

I can understand that, but is the OP in a cover or originals band?

Based on it's a bar, and they will pay when things get good, I am guessing it is not a situation where bands can't get paid.

THIS .....
View attachment 850243

or THIS .....
View attachment 850245

Again, find out what bands are getting paid, and what YOU want to get paid, and at least start there. The bar is in it to make money. If you help him to do that, you shouldn't be playing for food. YMMV.

 

[ak56]

Based on it's a bar, and they will pay when things get good, I am guessing it is not a situation where bands can't get paid.



Again, find out what bands are getting paid, and what YOU want to get paid, and at least start there. The bar is in it to make money. If you help him to do that, you shouldn't be playing for food. YMMV.

I'd like to see the bars definition for 'when things get good'.

 

[rtslinger]

Unless it is a charity, we would never play for free.

 

[greenduke]

Capitalism. Its supposed to work both ways. If YOU can't bring in/draw enough people to sell enough beverages and or food to make a profit; Pay the cost of operations for the evening plus a % profit for the club owner then...
Now, if you can't even cover your cost of transportation (fuel, insurance, registration, parking etc.) get at least minimum hourly wage etc. then...
Now, you can write off expenses; employed individually or as a business federal/state tax wise. You realize a professionally performing band is typically supposed to be a "Business" don't you?
Charities and other benefit situations are different subject as are open mikes for advertisement and exposure opportunities.
The key factor is: Are you a "Business Operation" or just a "Hobbyist?"

 

[Nev375]

Free food, a gig where you have fun, bills are paid, I'm not seeing the problem.
If you are content getting paid with a full belly, a good night, and maybe some cash or beer, then more power to ya.

The problem is because you can play for food and fun since your bills are covered by funds from another job, there's a musician out there who can't pay his bills because you and other's like you have undercut his paying gig over the years.

I don't know what you do for a living, but if you were to lose your job to a robot or a foreign worker who is willing to do your job for a fraction of your pay you will then understand what the problem is.

...but it's not your fault really. You and all of us are just pawns in a bigger game where things like this happen.

(I dare not comment further because it's against Talkbass rules to get into the nuances of economical ideals and politics.)

But yeah. Playing for free is a bad thing.

 

[friendlybass]

The problem is because you can play for food and fun since your bills are covered by funds from another job, there's a musician out there who can't pay his bills because you and other's like you have undercut his paying gig over the years.

I don't know what you do for a living, but if you were to lose your job to a robot or a foreign worker who is willing to do your job for a fraction of your pay you will then understand what the problem is.

...but it's not your fault really. You and all of us are just pawns in a bigger game where things like this happen.

(I dare not comment further because it's against Talkbass rules to get into the nuances of economical ideals and politics.)

But yeah. Playing for free is a bad thing.

And I appreciate that, my counter argument is this. My income comes from both my day job as a plumber, and my busy weekend of church gigs. Church gigs here in Denver are split pretty evenly between paid and volunteer, and the volunteer guys aren't less talented, just not paid. The paying churches aren't looking to go to volunteer musicians, even though a lot of them take a heavy hit paying musicians, the average praise band costs about 1000$ for a service and a rehearsal, and they don't make any money off of us and a lot of them we are their only recurring expense. A bar owner on the other hand uses the band as an attraction to sell drinks or tickets, so the couple hundred bucks to get a band makes itself back if the bar owner is smart.
Across the board a locally gigging musician or small name touring band doesn't make a ton, due in part to amateur bands willing to play to play, but if you are a musician making your living doing and your skills are worth that kind of wages, then you will get the paying gigs.

 

[brianrost]

the average praise band costs about 1000$ for a service and a rehearsal

No wonder everybody is playing in churches these days

 

[Lowness]

if one would read accurately ... the OP is the one who called the bar , basically asking if his band could do some ' dress rehearsals ' ( which are usually free and might be open to the public ) ... the band wants to basically borrow the club to work some kinks out ... ! With the prospect of having a club to play in the future .!

most responses sound like the club owner asked the band to play for free ( burgers ) ... that is not the way i read the OP's question . To me it sounds like a win / win for both parties if things work out . There is no way a new unknown band will bump the bigger drawing bands out of their spots ... !!

I actually look at it the other way around , as in, the band is renting the club for free .. ! w/some free food ...

Finally.......

We are an originals band. Whatever opportunity I get, I will leverage to: -- - iron-out performance kinks
- develop a live demo.

I am pumped

 

[trevcda]

if one would read accurately ... the OP is the one who called the bar , basically asking if his band could do some ' dress rehearsals ' ( which are usually free and might be open to the public ) ... the band wants to basically borrow the club to work some kinks out ...

Try restarting the same song more than three or four times or stopping to iron out vocal parts or sound issues, during happy hour at this "rehearsal" and see how well that flies! At some point you become more of an annoyance and less the free entertainment they thought they were getting.

 

[KickingBass]

The problem is because you can play for food and fun since your bills are covered by funds from another job, there's a musician out there who can't pay his bills because you and other's like you have undercut his paying gig over the years.

I don't know what you do for a living, but if you were to lose your job to a robot or a foreign worker who is willing to do your job for a fraction of your pay you will then understand what the problem is.

...but it's not your fault really. You and all of us are just pawns in a bigger game where things like this happen.

(I dare not comment further because it's against Talkbass rules to get into the nuances of economical ideals and politics.)

But yeah. Playing for free is a bad thing.

I can respect this point but then we have another issue. If I'm taking someone elses opportunities by having a job and playing, what am I supposed to do? Stop playing live?

 

[Nev375]

the average praise band costs about 1000$ for a service and a rehearsal,

Strangely enough, In addition to cancer benefits, Church is the other place I don't accept money to play in. I consider it a part of worship and service to the Lord's purpose.

To accept money for that while helping sell booze in a bar or winery for free.... I just don't understand that.

 

[KickingBass]

Strangely enough, In addition to cancer benefits, Church is the other place I don't accept money to play in. I consider it a part of worship and service to the Lord's purpose.

To accept money for that while helping sell booze in a bar or winery for free.... I just don't understand that.

Now that's an interesting point I had not thought of. I'll have to remember that one if anyone ever decides to start paying me...

 

[Luke19Boarder]

If the bar owner and band members are all happy with the arrangement, more power to you! I hope it ends up well for you (getting paid in the future). I'm in the minority around here, but I prioritize the enjoyment of playing live over the need to be paid to have fun.

 

[friendlybass]

I don't think so.

I can name dozens of local musicians with incredible skills who can't make a living at it. I know 2 guys who used to play at the Grand 'ol Oprey in their youth during the '70's. -- One of their Fathers was a regular on TV back then.(His name escapes me) I knew one of Elvis' old drummers. I was in a band once with a percussionist who toured with Carlos Santana, and for a while I jammed with another drummer who studied at Berkeley and was in and out of a bunch of almost-famous bands who gigged the L.A. circuit extensively in the 90's.

Actually a couple of those guys have passed on a few years back, but none of them can/could make enough money these days in music to pay their own rent, let alone raise a family. Those who DO have an income from music are getting it from giving lessons. If you are doing ok financially with a band these days you are one of the lucky few.

I see you're located in Missouri, are you in a fair sized city?
I'm in Denver and there are more venues than you can shake a stick at willing to pay for a crowd. Building the crowd takes forever and there's some mafia type stuff between most of the venue owners in the big stag scene so its tough to break in. That's why hired guns like myself do really well. Being in a band rarely pans out here, but subbing, church work, and events are where its at.
It sucks but being in a band doesn't usually make you a living in my honestly limited experience. Some guys in town got off the touring scene in the 70's making awesome money and haven't broken even on a band since (at least the way they tell stories, you know, uphill in the snow both ways) but are really well paid subs.
Doing the gigs you want vs. The ones that pay is always a factor in being a professional

 

[friendlybass]

Strangely enough, In addition to cancer benefits, Church is the other place I don't accept money to play in. I consider it a part of worship and service to the Lord's purpose.

To accept money for that while helping sell booze in a bar or winery for free.... I just don't understand that.

I know a lot of guys like that, and I wish I had as much of a heart as you for this stuff, but for me if I'm expected to haul a rig around and play the exact style that's required, then I require payment.

 

[Zebra]

I'm curious to know how many people can name the exact dollar amount they bring into a venue when they play a paid gig. I get why people are sticklers for being paid for their time, but the whole premise of being paid is that you are bringing the venue significantly more money than they are giving you. If a band can't guarantee that then they have no value and deserve no pay. Right?

 

[Nev375]

I see you're located in Missouri, are you in a fair sized city?
I'm in Denver and there are more venues than you can shake a stick at willing to pay for a crowd. Building the crowd takes forever and there's some mafia type stuff between most of the venue owners in the big stag scene so its tough to break in. That's why hired guns like myself do really well. Being in a band rarely pans out here, but subbing, church work, and events are where its at.
It sucks but being in a band doesn't usually make you a living in my honestly limited experience. Some guys in town got off the touring scene in the 70's making awesome money and haven't broken even on a band since (at least the way they tell stories, you know, uphill in the snow both ways) but are really well paid subs.
Doing the gigs you want vs. The ones that pay is always a factor in being a professional

Nah, I'm in a small-ish college town. It's possible to get a paying gig around here for about 150 to 200 bucks to split between the band. (Covers or originals, but original gigs are harder of course) but honestly, bar owners are happy to run the jukebox for nothing or pay a D.J. 50 bucks. That's their standard line.

 

[Lowness]

I'm curious to know how many people can name the exact dollar amount they bring into a venue when they play a paid gig. I get why people are sticklers for being paid for their time, but the whole premise of being paid is that you are bringing the venue significantly more money than they are giving you. If a band can't guarantee that then they have no value and deserve no pay. Right?

This is of course true but the music industry is very socialist.

 

[Matt O]

While I wouldn't approach a bar in the same way - hey can we play for free - at least the OP has made the agreement that the bar owner is off the hook financially and won't need to stiff the band, thereby preventing further damage to said bar owner's eternal soul.

I now see it as the OP helping to protect the karma of the bar owner.

I say go for it and good on ya, OP.

Also, this very topic gets heated in photographer forums. Not just a music thing at all...

 

[StayLow]

Years from now we all thank you for starting this and making it the new standard. I hope it catches on!!!

Girlfriends and wives never put prostitutes out of business. Bar bands, even full-on KISS tributes with pyro, never put KISS out of business. Free legal aid never put lawyers out of business. Local restaurants are still busy when the local car dealership gives away free hot dogs.

I'm not saying playing for free is smart but I am saying the idea that he's undermining the rest of us is pure BS.

People will always be willing to pay, and pay a premium, for quality hassle-free professional services.

If there's any harm in what the OP is doing, it's to the reputation of live music in bars and bar bands in general. Far too many are too loud, unprofessional and generally crap musically. Reflects poorly on bar bands and on establishments that hire them.

Hopefully the OP's band is better and smarter than that. Good luck and have fun!