Small Bass Amp Doesn't Cut or Project

[CatOnTheBass]

Have you thought about a powered PA loudspeaker, up on a pole?
For example a QSC CP8 weighs 21lbs and costs about the same as your Phil Jones. (not including the pole)
A PA speaker won't sound the same as a bass amp, but it is designed specifically to fill an outdoor area with sound. (And if you need to tweak your tone, you can get a small preamp or EQ pedal.)

 

[Bass4ThePublic]

Fender rumble 500 or 800. An entire rumble 500 weighs less than my sunn 200s head and fills a room nicely. Has di out too

 

[singlemalt]

https://www.homedepot.com/b/Storage...lies-Hand-Trucks/Folding/N-5yc1vZchn9Z1z0jt4z

You need a bigger cab, to move more air, and more watts to move those speakers. You can get all that in a lightweight, compact combo, but the price goes up as the weight goes down.

These days, loud and heavy is cheap.

Battery powered is a whole 'nuther can of worms.

Sounds like you guys have a car that gets you close to the spot, and power when you are there. So, it's just the schlep from the car to setup that you need to work on. Paved, sidewalks and curbs, or gravel approach? Will you need to scatter and run from the law?

Plus, whatever you put together has to fit in the car with everyone and their stuff.

Bass goes a long way in a confined space, but as you've found, quickly heads into the wild with no walls to bounce off. You'd be surprised at what you are putting out if you were a wave length away from the amp.

Lots of buskers have some version of a rolling set up they drag on and off of public transportation and through city streets. Their set up can be very creative.

 

[brianrost]

Power isn't the thing you really need - what you need is more efficient speakers.

That's what I've dislike about the small Phil Jones amps. They look great on paper but they simply don't get loud enough because of the tiny speakers.

If you look at the PJB "stacks" you'll understand why they have a lot of drivers. This one has 16 of the 5" drivers.

 

[_Some Dude]

Before I got the Phil Jones I was carrying around a massive 40-50lb Crate amp. Which was great for being as loud as ill ever need for non-stadiums but terrible when I only weigh 140lbs and want to play anywhere that is not where the amp currently sits.

I tried to find a picture with a speaker, but I think this gets the point across.

 

[Aloe]

every amp works worse outdoors.

I love my S-77, it almost cuts for my rehearsal volumes. I'd like to have a hair more power to it. but would I play it live with a drummer without FOH support? eh, no. same, but outdoors? heck, no!

an efficient neo 12" and a 500W amp (could be a combo or separates) is what you need. it won't be heavier than a S-77, but will cost more. add a second cab when you'll need to.

 

[Marko 1]

Have you thought about a powered PA loudspeaker, up on a pole?
For example a QSC CP8 weighs 21lbs and costs about the same as your Phil Jones. (not including the pole)
A PA speaker won't sound the same as a bass amp, but it is designed specifically to fill an outdoor area with sound. (And if you need to tweak your tone, you can get a small preamp or EQ pedal.)

I personally would never depend on an 8" PA speaker to fill an outdoor area with bass frequencies.

 

[aprod]

SPL comes from a combination of usable power and the efficiency of your speaker.

Start with the 1W sensitivity rating of your cab. For example I used to run an Eden D210XLT which has a sensitivity rating of 103dB 1W/1m, which is on the high side. The means 1W is applied and you get 103dB measured at 1 meter from the cone.

Next consider the decibel change your amp can produce.

Changing the power from 1W to 100W produces the following decibel change:

Log(100) x 10 = 20dB
​

Add this to the Edens sensitivity rating:

103 + 20 = 123dB.
​

I believe I am usually pretty content with a rig that can make at least a calculated SPL of 124dB. So a 100W amp pushing an Eden D210XLT would be loud enough for many of the gigs I did. For the record I used a 250W amp with this cab and never felt I was close to pushing it to the limit.

SPL at 250W = [log(250) x 10] + 103 = ~127dB.​

Most of your problem is the little 2x7 cab most likely has a relatively low sensitivity rating. AFAIK PJ does not post sensitivity ratings, but let's say it's 95dB 1W/1m and add this figure to the 20dB change your amp is capable of.

95 + 20 = 115dB.
​

In my experience, 118dB is barely enough the get the job done in many situations, and it will not be a joy to play at this level with a moderately loud drummer. So your rig probably falls short of 118dB.

SPL goes up by 3dB with each doubling of power. I doubt the 2x7 can handle much more than 100W, but let's assume you have another cab with the same sensitivity rating that can.

To get 124dB, the SPL must be raised by 124 - 115 = 9dB. That means we have to double the power three times. Remember we start off with 115dB at 100W

100 x 2 = 200W (115 + 3 = 118dB)
200 x 2 = 400W (118 + 3 = 121dB)
400 x 2 = 800W (121 + 3 = 124dB)
​

So if your cab has a 95dB 1W/1m sensitivity rating, you need 800W to get 124dB...and the cab must be able to take 800W.

​

You can also figure how much power is required by solving for X after calculating the decibel change needed to go from 95dB and 124dB.

124 - 95 = 29dB
​

Solve for X

[Log(X) x 10] = 29
Log(X) = 29/10
Log(X) = 2.9​

Converting to an exponential we get

10^2.9 = X​

Rearranging the equation

X=10^2.9
X = ~ 794W.​

The difference between ~794W and 800W is due to rounding errors.

Hopefully you get the idea, that if your cab has a lowish sensitivity rating, you need more power to play loud. Also the cab needs to be able to actually handle the power.

For busking your amp may be fine, as you may find it better to trade the desired SPL for portability.

If you want more volume, get an amp that has more power and/or a speaker with a higher sensitivity rating. Most likely this will mean a bigger rig.

IMHO you may be better off with a pure-sine power bank and a regular bass amp than a battery powered amp. If you are curious: Battery-Powered Mayhem! (Jackery 300)

Good Luck!

Really!?!

 

[Marko 1]

....
If you look at the PJB "stacks" you'll understand why they have a lot of drivers. This one has 16 of the 5" drivers.

View attachment 4951716

A nice 2x15 would also work.

 

[Jefenator]

You're probably going to have to schlep more, but really, there are plenty of solutions out there between the inadequate lunchbox and overkill.
Time is good to have for doing diligence & hunting for the right deal.

 

[BobDeRosa]

As good as Phil Jones products are, I think you'll find that for larger rooms or outdoor use, those little speakers will not serve you well. In most cases, 100 watts with a 12" speaker will make a huge difference, and more wattage will put you in a completely different league.

 

[micguy]

That's what I've dislike about the small Phil Jones amps. They look great on paper but they simply don't get loud enough because of the tiny speakers.

If you look at the PJB "stacks" you'll understand why they have a lot of drivers. This one has 16 of the 5" drivers.

View attachment 4951716

An array of drivers can indeed give you performance advantages. The drivers used in Ampeg 810's are (one at a time) rather inefficient. But 8 of them (or 16 - the original SVT' rigs were intended to use two cabinets), and you've got a pretty efficient rig.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Hello, this is my first post. Quick background, I've been playing guitar for 15 years and seriously playing bass for about 5 years. Yeah yeah, get all of your guitarist playing bass jokes out of the way.

So over the past year I've started to get more serious about being in an active band, live shows, busking, etc. Before this past year I have never played live for any kind of crowd, and I've run into a problem. When busking I want to have a mobile setup obviously, so I got myself a Phil Jones Session 77. It claims 100 watts at 4ohms, it only weights about 10-15lbs, and is effectively a 12in cube, a very simple amp but it's perfect for carting around cities with minimal effort.

It works okay practicing in small basements but as soon as I bring it out into the open air it falls flat. It barely has enough presence at full volume to keep up with the drummer when he's only playing in the middle of his dynamic range. On top of that I play my best with a soft touch, and I'm playing mostly neosoul and blues so I usually like to have my amp volume set a little louder than normal.

So basically I'm wondering whether I need a physically bigger and more powerful amp or can I get away with something around the same size as my phil jones but with more power?

Thanks

Probably you need a more substantial rig, more speaker area most notably. Same size? Not likely.

Just a couple of things to try. First, elevate your amp as close as you can get it to your ears. Secondly, keep amp up against a wall (if rear ported leave an inch or two away from the wall) or better yet tucked in a corner.

Thirdly, revisit your EQ. Back off the bass tone control and increase your volume a bit to offset.

If those 3 things don't help, it's time to think about some compromises. Best wishes.

 

[Nebadon2000]

I like this idea, I'm hoping I can find 1x12 cabinets that aren't hideously expensive. I'm on a budget at the moment and a 4-5 way split on busking money along with an hour drive to the city doesn't leave much profit margin in our normal location and time.

Used Markbass CMD 121P about $400-500 26lbs

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Hello, this is my first post. Quick background, I've been playing guitar for 15 years and seriously playing bass for about 5 years. Yeah yeah, get all of your guitarist playing bass jokes out of the way.

So over the past year I've started to get more serious about being in an active band, live shows, busking, etc. Before this past year I have never played live for any kind of crowd, and I've run into a problem. When busking I want to have a mobile setup obviously, so I got myself a Phil Jones Session 77. It claims 100 watts at 4ohms, it only weights about 10-15lbs, and is effectively a 12in cube, a very simple amp but it's perfect for carting around cities with minimal effort.

It works okay practicing in small basements but as soon as I bring it out into the open air it falls flat. It barely has enough presence at full volume to keep up with the drummer when he's only playing in the middle of his dynamic range. On top of that I play my best with a soft touch, and I'm playing mostly neosoul and blues so I usually like to have my amp volume set a little louder than normal.

So basically I'm wondering whether I need a physically bigger and more powerful amp or can I get away with something around the same size as my phil jones but with more power?

Thanks

Well, you're busking a 100w combo amp, trying to hold your own, outside, with drums, on bass.

Yeah, it's just not going to cut it.

Try for more like 15w, with your low end cut to heck. You're running off of batteries.


Indoors, hooked to power, 115/212 will be adequate for live sound.

 

[FullumMusic]

All the things everyone said about the amp really not being suited for filling a room with bass already.

Also, how far away are you standing? If your amp is on the ground and you're standing right next to it, you're probably not hearing how loud it actually is. The wavelength of a low E (41.2Hz) is approx 28 feet. To hear how loud the bass actually is, you should probably stand 20 feet away with the speakers facing your ears. It might be louder than you think it is. (It's still probably not pushing enough air to be as loud as you want it, which goes back to what everyone said about needing a more powerful amp with bigger cones.)

Also, if you're busking outside, louder amps will probably also sound a bit weak. It's just going into open air. If you set up across from a flat surface like the outside of a building you might hear yourself better because it'll be reflecting the bass back to you. But then you'll be getting some latency delay in the time it takes to get to the wall and back to your ear. Again, setting your amp further back and angling it up towards your ears will probably help. And again, that amp isn't moving much air to begin with. But also, how loud do you need to be when busking? People want to hear nice tunes for their lovely day at the park, not be blown out of the park by screaming amps.

Another thing to consider, if you're in a city area, you'd be amazed at how loud the ambient sounds of the city are that your amps are competing with.

 

[GWGuitar]

Acoustic makes a 600W combo that looks really good and seems fairly portable. I have the little practice amp version of it for home and I love it. If I was gigging out regularly, I'd get the big one.

 

[mark107]

The PJ stuff has very little power and no low end to speak of. I played through a bunch of them at a music expo and was kind of shocked how little they put out. Nice feature set, nice weight, but not gonna cut on the bandstand with other players. Not in my world.

 

[Winton]

Hello, this is my first post. Quick background, I've been playing guitar for 15 years and seriously playing bass for about 5 years. Yeah yeah, get all of your guitarist playing bass jokes out of the way.

So over the past year I've started to get more serious about being in an active band, live shows, busking, etc. Before this past year I have never played live for any kind of crowd, and I've run into a problem. When busking I want to have a mobile setup obviously, so I got myself a Phil Jones Session 77. It claims 100 watts at 4ohms, it only weights about 10-15lbs, and is effectively a 12in cube, a very simple amp but it's perfect for carting around cities with minimal effort.

It works okay practicing in small basements but as soon as I bring it out into the open air it falls flat. It barely has enough presence at full volume to keep up with the drummer when he's only playing in the middle of his dynamic range. On top of that I play my best with a soft touch, and I'm playing mostly neosoul and blues so I usually like to have my amp volume set a little louder than normal.

So basically I'm wondering whether I need a physically bigger and more powerful amp or can I get away with something around the same size as my phil jones but with more power?

Thanks

I saw this band on the streets of San Francisco and the bassist was using this amp:

ROLAND MICRO CUBE BASS RX

His band had a small kit drummer, keyboardist, and a sax player playing funk music. I was surprised at how well and clear I heard him from the other side of the street!

 

[Robert Booker]

Line 6 also produced a series of bass amps called the Lowdown Studio Series. I had the 75w Studio 110 version and it was surprisingly potent for a smaller 12x12 bass cube. There were also 150w Studio 150 1x12 and 300w 1x15 versions. Line 6 Low Down LD150

They're no longer made but there have been a few of the Studio 110 version available at times on Reverb or Ebay. Even the 110 has a balanced out the OP might run to their PA or a powered sub. It may just solve his problem for something small and inexpensive with just enough balls and features to get by provided the band isn't too loud.

Line 6 LowDown Studio 110 75-Watt 1x10" Digital Modeling Bass Practice Amp | Reverb