Again, not really trying to dog you. I live in Sheboygan, WI at the moment, so I feel your pain. I have not purchased anything (well, hardly anything) from a brick and mortar store in years. Most of the good stuff has very low distribution. The good news is, most high end companies, and even Musician's Friend (Guitar Center's on-line cousin) has a 'no questions asked' return policy.
Again, the Mesa stuff you are playing is top notch. However, you should be aware that 'the times, they are a changin'
Lots of amazing stuff, and the weight/size/volume/low end equation is getting pretty wonderful these days.
Also, keep in mind that there are many kinds of professional bassists. I'm an 'on the road/freelance player'. I drive or fly to most of my gigs, and to not have help with load in. I very often play in very large cities, and often have to walk multiple blocks to get from a rare parking place to a venue. So, that makes size and weight very important to me. However, I would not compromise my tone just to make it easier to load in. Fortunately, if you have enough money, you can get some VERY good sounding stuf that is a simple one-trip schlep, that still sounds amazing.
For those guys who play in bands with 'group load in', or have roadies, or play in very small cities/towns where you can park right next to the gig, or for those poor slobs who have to compete with a stack of Marshall's or whatever, you need lots of cabs, or very big (but not necessarily heavy) cabs.
So, lots of 'different strokes for different folks'.
My primary points are 'light does not mean cheap' and heavy does not necessariy mean 'great'.
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Small speakers that sound 'big'
- Thread starter FourBanger
- Start date
Re: the "sounds like a big rig, just quieter" thing, that's kind of a yes and a no.
Yeah, for example, you could pull 1 driver out of an Ampeg 810, put it a box exactly 1/8 the size and it would measure close to the big cab, just quieter, but not exactly for a couple reasons.
1. The human ear/brain just plain hears louder as "better" in many cases, and the louder you go, the less effect the whole "Fletcher-Munson" thing has, so it sounds bassier.
2. You lose a bit of the low frequency coupling you get from placing multiple drivers close together.
3. A single speaker has a conical dispersion pattern. Vertical dispersion is equal to horizontal, save for the floor bounce, and your sound kind of gets spread everywhere instead of being focused more forward towards the player and audience.
4. Just the fact that we play a bass instrument, we have to push more air to get our sound out there as loud as the higher pitched stuff. Amp/speaker companies both large and small, custom shop builders, DIY guys, and especially the driver manufacturers have all done some pretty amazing things as far as getting bass gear with good tone and gig worthy output into smaller, lighter and more convenient packages, bit there's only so far you can go with it before it won't do a good job of serving the bass instrument anymore.
I guess that's more than a couple and there's likely a few more.
Better to set out to make a good performing small cab in the first place rather than take a large one that does well and start dividing it up and shrinking it. Of course, there also has to be a market for said rigs, no point in making one if people don't want to buy it.
Yeah, for example, you could pull 1 driver out of an Ampeg 810, put it a box exactly 1/8 the size and it would measure close to the big cab, just quieter, but not exactly for a couple reasons.
1. The human ear/brain just plain hears louder as "better" in many cases, and the louder you go, the less effect the whole "Fletcher-Munson" thing has, so it sounds bassier.
2. You lose a bit of the low frequency coupling you get from placing multiple drivers close together.
3. A single speaker has a conical dispersion pattern. Vertical dispersion is equal to horizontal, save for the floor bounce, and your sound kind of gets spread everywhere instead of being focused more forward towards the player and audience.
4. Just the fact that we play a bass instrument, we have to push more air to get our sound out there as loud as the higher pitched stuff. Amp/speaker companies both large and small, custom shop builders, DIY guys, and especially the driver manufacturers have all done some pretty amazing things as far as getting bass gear with good tone and gig worthy output into smaller, lighter and more convenient packages, bit there's only so far you can go with it before it won't do a good job of serving the bass instrument anymore.
I guess that's more than a couple and there's likely a few more.
Better to set out to make a good performing small cab in the first place rather than take a large one that does well and start dividing it up and shrinking it. Of course, there also has to be a market for said rigs, no point in making one if people don't want to buy it.
popgadget
Commercial User
- Sep 4, 2005
- 1,233
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- Authorized Greenboy Designs Builder, Scabbey Road
First, who cares how many watts a cabinet can handle? I care far more what is the maximum sustainable SPL it can deliver, and then how much power does it need to do it.
Secondly I drive a 12/6 with either a Shuttle 9.0 or a Streamliner 900.
Actually, 4 of the 8's would equal a 4 x 10 and in small light boxes, too. The 2 x 8 boxes are only 21 x 11 x 13 so 2 of 'em are only 21 x 22 x 13. Pretty small by my standards.
The helpfulness of TB is so often lost in the noise. It is unfortunate as such a large community of knowledgeable people is a great resource but I have to say there is a background sense of anger and self-rightousness here at a level I would never have expected from this demographic.
Signing off. Won't return.
Signing off. Won't return.
Addressing the opening topic, I would suppose it depends on:
1.) Your expectations.
2.) What you are comparing things too.
I've had less than stellar luck with some 1x12s and 2x8s delivering (what I expected to be) "low end", but that was comparing them to front shelf-ported 2x10s. I'm far from any kind of ~expert~ (self proclaimed or otherwise) but I know what I'm hearing. As has been said already, there have been great big advancements in small speaker (as well as small amplifier) designs lately, but it comes down to moving air in the end. The debate reminds me of comparing high-strung turbocharged small displacement engines to large displacement naturally aspirated engines. While the dyno may tell a story of equality, the two power plants deliver very different "types" of power (torque curves, power curves, brake horsepower, and so on). Whether or not that "type" suiits you depends on many factors. I feel that speaker size comparisons draw many of the same types of parallels. Comes down to "feel and response" --- and do my bones rattle when the fat strings come into use.
My mom has one of those little Bose CD players that claims "big system sound from a clock radio sized device". Hmm ... yea, I suppose it sounds pretty good, with the volume reduced to "bedroom" or coffee table levels, but it will NEVER compete with my 3-way home stereo when the SPL gets up there. The "illusion" of actual power fades away once the cones start really stroking with a lot of depth.
So I guess it depends on your expectations and your intended use. But it seems like until the brainiacs figure out how to change air density at will, and the human microphone (the ear and it's workings) it seems as though it will always be about moving enough air to satisfy the expectations. Sure, games can be played with low end harmonics, port length and other aspects I know little about. But in my own experience a direct A/B comparison of many of the mighty-mites out there to (even just) a front shelf ported 2x10 isn't much of a contest. Raise the stakes to a 4x10 and it's game over.
In my own experience I think many of the little giants sound like they've been processed with a high pass filter to some degree when compared to something that really moves air.
I've no doubt the opinions of others will differ from my own. So I'll end this with a "Just Sayin'"
1.) Your expectations.
2.) What you are comparing things too.
I've had less than stellar luck with some 1x12s and 2x8s delivering (what I expected to be) "low end", but that was comparing them to front shelf-ported 2x10s. I'm far from any kind of ~expert~ (self proclaimed or otherwise) but I know what I'm hearing. As has been said already, there have been great big advancements in small speaker (as well as small amplifier) designs lately, but it comes down to moving air in the end. The debate reminds me of comparing high-strung turbocharged small displacement engines to large displacement naturally aspirated engines. While the dyno may tell a story of equality, the two power plants deliver very different "types" of power (torque curves, power curves, brake horsepower, and so on). Whether or not that "type" suiits you depends on many factors. I feel that speaker size comparisons draw many of the same types of parallels. Comes down to "feel and response" --- and do my bones rattle when the fat strings come into use.
My mom has one of those little Bose CD players that claims "big system sound from a clock radio sized device". Hmm ... yea, I suppose it sounds pretty good, with the volume reduced to "bedroom" or coffee table levels, but it will NEVER compete with my 3-way home stereo when the SPL gets up there. The "illusion" of actual power fades away once the cones start really stroking with a lot of depth.
So I guess it depends on your expectations and your intended use. But it seems like until the brainiacs figure out how to change air density at will, and the human microphone (the ear and it's workings) it seems as though it will always be about moving enough air to satisfy the expectations. Sure, games can be played with low end harmonics, port length and other aspects I know little about. But in my own experience a direct A/B comparison of many of the mighty-mites out there to (even just) a front shelf ported 2x10 isn't much of a contest. Raise the stakes to a 4x10 and it's game over.
In my own experience I think many of the little giants sound like they've been processed with a high pass filter to some degree when compared to something that really moves air.
I've no doubt the opinions of others will differ from my own. So I'll end this with a "Just Sayin'"
Lots of comments here about light verses heavy cabinets. Well, I had an experience recently that shocked me and made me think a bit.
We seem to talk a lot about the sound quality (as we should) but another important factor for some of us is durability. I play 3 to 5 nights a week, and have done up to 9 gigs in a 6 day stretch in the last year. This much moving is hard on gear, and it shows. I have had Mesa's dropped, Ampegs fall off the back of the truck, and even Marshalls take a whallup but they hold up well, if maybe a few scars present.
Recently I bought one of the more "boutique" expensive lightweight cabs to try. Upon shipping the box was damaged, one corner hit. Upon opening the box I couldn't believe that this cabinet was destroyed. I had completely come apart, joints on two edges had come apart, and only three cheap brad staples were holding it together. No tongue/groove, no dado joint, just a very simple joint with a bit of glue and three brad staples ( and small ones at that). No wonder the box failed. It is in pieces. I have never seen anything quite like it, and can't imagine that this would happen with a Mesa. So buyer beware in our quest for light weight - you may be giving up durability as well.
We seem to talk a lot about the sound quality (as we should) but another important factor for some of us is durability. I play 3 to 5 nights a week, and have done up to 9 gigs in a 6 day stretch in the last year. This much moving is hard on gear, and it shows. I have had Mesa's dropped, Ampegs fall off the back of the truck, and even Marshalls take a whallup but they hold up well, if maybe a few scars present.
Recently I bought one of the more "boutique" expensive lightweight cabs to try. Upon shipping the box was damaged, one corner hit. Upon opening the box I couldn't believe that this cabinet was destroyed. I had completely come apart, joints on two edges had come apart, and only three cheap brad staples were holding it together. No tongue/groove, no dado joint, just a very simple joint with a bit of glue and three brad staples ( and small ones at that). No wonder the box failed. It is in pieces. I have never seen anything quite like it, and can't imagine that this would happen with a Mesa. So buyer beware in our quest for light weight - you may be giving up durability as well.
As did Carvin, they just totally bailed out of the neo game altogether. Once existing stock is gone that's it.
Which company or design? and who was it shipped through. Vague generations lump in good boutique builders with bad ones.
Is that standardized? I was under the impression that "thermal ratings" were the exception?
95% of the power ratings you see on commercial cabs are based on thermal ratings. What makes it confusing is there is usually no indication of the basis for the ratings.
The cabinet in mention was shipped through FedEx. The box on the outside showed some indentation on a corner. I won't mention the name of the builder as I don't want to start an argument, only want to mention that buyer beware - some of these cabs may be home or studio worthy but may not hold up under the rigors of road use.
Like any product...Not all products or builders are made the same. There are some good ones out there. And some bad ones. I've had experience with "boutique" products that were aweful and experience with "production line" stuff that was great. It all depends.
Amen brother, tell it all. I want a light cab, but am afraid to get one. I liken them to these small cars running around with 400 or 500 hp. Can they outrun a corvette, sure, they are much much lighter and teens think they are a hoot.
Problem is that little motor won't last long, it will blow and blow hard. Although the high performance parts you put in it are made to take it, the rest of your motor isn't and eventually it will puke.
I will still look and try every cab that I can, but in the end I won't buy it just because it sounds good for such a small cab, I want great sound and will not settle for anything else. If its light and still built like a tank fine, if not then its big iron for me.
I don't know why, but I can't stop myself from countering some of this rubbish. You continue to mix the issues of box material, design of drivers, and cabs versus heads. Again, not trying to dog you as much as give you some things to think about, and a bit more knowledge about this stuff.
1) There is NO difference between reliability, durability, etc. between neo and ceramic drivers. The magnet material (which is allowed to be smaller and lighter using neodymium versus heavier traditional magnets) is the primary difference in weight (typically about 5 pounds per driver in weight reduction). For example, putting it in your terms of digging the Mesa gear, I would think there is absolutely no difference in reliability/durability between the Mesa neo cabs (anything with a 12 in it, at least for the last decade or so... they might have bailed on neo due to pricing at this point also), and their ceramic cabs (anything with a 110 in it). I've been on the road with neo loaded cabs since the early 90's, as have many of my freelancing peers. Zero issues or indication of differential relaibility/durability based on driver type.
2) BOX material is a different issue. Neo boxes made by Epifani, Genz, Bergantino, etc., etc. use high quality plywood and are braced and put together in the same way as ceramic driver loaded cabs. Since the neo drivers are not as heavy, you can use either lighter plywood (poplar), or in some cases, slighty thinner plywood to further lower the weight of the cab. I have neither experienced nor heard about a differential rate of 'issues' with well made cabs using poplar or thinner ply versus the cheaper/heavier (versus poplar) traditional plywood. Zero issue again.
3) There are some VERY high end boutique cabs that are really pushing the envelope of making a cab as lightweight as possible. Here, you have a point. For example, the current 'state-of-the-art' in getting the maximum wump in the smallest lightest box is (IMO and IME) the Arnopol version of the Thunderchild Compact TC115, made out of composite/fiberglass material. Of course, the Eminence neo 3015LF based driver in that cab is a pro PA speaker... totally top end, and will take more power, bass, etc. than virtually ANY other driver on the market, neo or otherwise. However, I would not choose this super-lightweight composite material if I was throwing this cab in a van every night with a lot of other equipment. Of course, in that situation, an uber lightweight cab would have little benefit anyway. However, that is a rare extreme example of pushing the lightweight/size thing to its limits. Of course, that cab will less likely have driver issues than virtually any other cab on the market, given the simply amazing, state-of-the art, almost subwoofer spec driver in there. To your point (kind of), there ARE crap cabs regarding box construction out there in any design.... no argument there. However, surely not limited to 'lighweight' boxes.
3) Your 'car' example which makes no sense regarding cabs, since again, there is NO trade-off between magnet material and durability or performance. The analogy has been used with the lightweight amps, primarily made lightweight due not to the power amp design (some are actually the traditional class A/B amps used since the beginning of time), but rather the power supply design. Lightweight amps use a 'switch mode power supply' (SMPS) instead of a heavy transformer. There again seems to be NO issue in reliability versus traditional power supplies. These type of power supplies have been used in top end touring PA's (especially for deep bass subwoofer executions) for years and years. Nothing new about it.
There ARE many who believe that a 'big iron' power supply will deliver deep bass better than an SMPS amp. Given the long-time use of SMPS amps in the PA industry, this seems a bit dubious. However, I have experience deeper low end 'presence' with amps like the DB750. the Mesa M6/M9, and the Glock Heartrock versus most of the micro amps I've used for years (gigged a Heartrock for a while). I have no idea if this is a hi pass/voicing issue, or just the ability of a big transformer to perform well in the deep bass area (for example, traditional designed amps like the AG500, the Thunderfunk, the Eden WT heads in NO way have better 'performance per watt' than SMPS designs at this point in time, which put the power supply argument on shaky ground). However, the point is, this is NOT a reliability issue/discussion at all. Per your car analogy, a class D/SMPS amp actually runs more efficiently and 'less hard' than more traditional designs when pushed.... again, zero validity in your 'car analogy', unless you use too little power and cone area for your volume needs. That of course would impact rigs of any design.
So, again, throwing all this stuff into one bucket of 'lightweight' is not a very good way to think about it. Again, if you dig your big, heavy Mesa cabs, there is NOTHING wrong with that. Nice sounding, high quality stuff. Just remember, many of those big Mesa cabs are loaded with neo drivers
I don't know why, but I can't stop myself from countering some of this rubbish. You continue to mix the issues of box material, design of drivers, and cabs versus heads. Again, not trying to dog you as much as give you some things to think about, and a bit more knowledge about this stuff.
1) There is NO difference between reliability, durability, etc. between neo and ceramic drivers. The magnet material (which is allowed to be smaller and lighter using neodymium versus heavier traditional magnets) is the primary difference in weight (typically about 5 pounds per driver in weight reduction). For example, putting it in your terms of digging the Mesa gear, I would think there is absolutely no difference in reliability/durability between the Mesa neo cabs (anything with a 12 in it, at least for the last decade or so... they might have bailed on neo due to pricing at this point also), and their ceramic cabs (anything with a 110 in it). I've been on the road with neo loaded cabs since the early 90's, as have many of my freelancing peers. Zero issues or indication of differential relaibility/durability based on driver type.
2) BOX material is a different issue. Neo boxes made by Epifani, Genz, Bergantino, etc., etc. use high quality plywood and are braced and put together in the same way as ceramic driver loaded cabs. Since the neo drivers are not as heavy, you can use either lighter plywood (poplar), or in some cases, slighty thinner plywood to further lower the weight of the cab. I have neither experienced nor heard about a differential rate of 'issues' with well made cabs using poplar or thinner ply versus the cheaper/heavier (versus poplar) traditional plywood. Zero issue again.
3) There are some VERY high end boutique cabs that are really pushing the envelope of making a cab as lightweight as possible. Here, you have a point. For example, the current 'state-of-the-art' in getting the maximum wump in the smallest lightest box is (IMO and IME) the Arnopol version of the Thunderchild Compact TC115, made out of composite/fiberglass material. Of course, the Eminence neo 3015LF based driver in that cab is a pro PA speaker... totally top end, and will take more power, bass, etc. than virtually ANY other driver on the market, neo or otherwise. However, I would not choose this super-lightweight composite material if I was throwing this cab in a van every night with a lot of other equipment. Of course, in that situation, an uber lightweight cab would have little benefit anyway. However, that is a rare extreme example of pushing the lightweight/size thing to its limits. Of course, that cab will less likely have driver issues than virtually any other cab on the market, given the simply amazing, state-of-the art, almost subwoofer spec driver in there. To your point (kind of), there ARE crap cabs regarding box construction out there in any design.... no argument there. However, surely not limited to 'lighweight' boxes.
3) Your 'car' example which makes no sense regarding cabs, since again, there is NO trade-off between magnet material and durability or performance. The analogy has been used with the lightweight amps, primarily made lightweight due not to the power amp design (some are actually the traditional class A/B amps used since the beginning of time), but rather the power supply design. Lightweight amps use a 'switch mode power supply' (SMPS) instead of a heavy transformer. There again seems to be NO issue in reliability versus traditional power supplies. These type of power supplies have been used in top end touring PA's (especially for deep bass subwoofer executions) for years and years. Nothing new about it.
There ARE many who believe that a 'big iron' power supply will deliver deep bass better than an SMPS amp. Given the long-time use of SMPS amps in the PA industry, this seems a bit dubious. However, I have experience deeper low end 'presence' with amps like the DB750. the Mesa M6/M9, and the Glock Heartrock versus most of the micro amps I've used for years (gigged a Heartrock for a while). I have no idea if this is a hi pass/voicing issue, or just the ability of a big transformer to perform well in the deep bass area (for example, traditional designed amps like the AG500, the Thunderfunk, the Eden WT heads in NO way have better 'performance per watt' than SMPS designs at this point in time, which put the power supply argument on shaky ground). However, the point is, this is NOT a reliability issue/discussion at all. Per your car analogy, a class D/SMPS amp actually runs more efficiently and 'less hard' than more traditional designs when pushed.... again, zero validity in your 'car analogy', unless you use too little power and cone area for your volume needs. That of course would impact rigs of any design.
So, again, throwing all this stuff into one bucket of 'lightweight' is not a very good way to think about it. Again, if you dig your big, heavy Mesa cabs, there is NOTHING wrong with that. Nice sounding, high quality stuff. Just remember, many of those big Mesa cabs are loaded with neo drivers
Don't worry about dogging me, I have thick skin, just trying to learn here. The car analogy wasn't meant to be literal, just my impression of how I think it might be.
As far as Mesa is concerned yes, I love them but its not practical for what I do now so I will go to something lighter.
Some of this stuff is so confusing for instance: Looking at the ampeg pro neo series, love the way they sound on Utube but I have questions because I investigate stuff and the more you do that the more questions it brings up.
Like the 210 pro neo series, rated at 550 watts at 8ohms. However when you go to the ampeg site and download the owners manual, it says that the drivers in that cabinet are rated at 200 watts apiece thats 400 watts not 550.
only thing I can think of is they are including some power for the horn or driver as they call it.
So I was wondering, their 410 cab is rated 850 watts, the 210 550 watts. It would be more expensive but it seems based on their numbers if I buy 2 210 cabs I will have a 410 cab that would be rated at 1100 watts instead of 850.
I will need two cabs anyway to bring the impedence down to 4ohms so that might be the way to go plus easier to carry the 210 vs the 410. Any thoughts on this ?
First of all, Ampeg uses more than one type of 10" speaker. Different speakers have different properties, almost none of them correlate to driver size.
Second you can expect ~500 watts to be the true upper range of power handling in a 410 regardless of specs. What you see published are thermal power handling, and have little bearing on how much power the cab can take before farting out, or how loud the cab will get.
