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Small speakers that sound 'big'

2nd of all wasn't a literal analogy, was poking fun that little cabs are nice if all you have is a 2 door honda civic to cart them around with, but they will never sound as good as a big Ampeg or Mesa Cab.

We will talk Fearful when I see them on a big stage.

Im not a particular fan of the fEARful cabs (more from a tonal perspective than a performance perspective), but why would you expect to see a cab that is primarily sold as a do it yourself kit, on a 'big stage'? Again, in the jazz and smaller venue pop world, you see lots of 'boutique gear'. Richard Bona has been playing Walter Woods, Tecamp, and Epifani gear for years. James Genus uses Walter Woods and Bag End cabs. Last time I saw Anthony Jackson, he was gigging a Bergantino cab with an Avalon preamp, etc., etc., etc.

Again, don't mean to dog you, but there was a thread about this recently (why don't you see more boutique cabs on concert stages), and it is quite obvious. Backline is pretty unimportant on big stages, where most players use in ears, and the audience hears front of house PA's.

You might want to do a search for that thread.... interesting stuff by some very knowledgeable players, including a few touring professionals.
 
What about cabs like the single 8 or 10 that are part of the Shuttle 3.0 series and the 112 For the more powerful shuttles? I am not thinking they can put it out like a big 15 cab but how do they do?

Those are nice cabs, but the 8 is, at most, a practice amp, and the 10 is, at most, a small jazz gig type thing.

The original Shuttle 112 was nice, but still sounded like a 'small 112'. The newer Shuttle 112 (that is associated with the Shuttle 6.2) is quite impressive. It is not what I call a 'super 12', having a hugely powerful sub-woofer inspired PA type driver and a super quality crossover with a heavy duty mid driver or horn. However, it is surprisingly full. The Shuttle 6.2/112 combo is capable of a moderate volume small room gig all by itself, and with the extension cab, it will rival many bigger/heavier 212 cabs or 2 x 112 stacks.

Impressive update on the Shuttle 112 cab (and the Shuttle 6.2).

Check out the Basswhisperer website. Ed Friedland did a very nice video demo on the newer 6.2/112 combo.

IMO!
 
:confused: No offense, but your posts are either based on some sort of in-going anger or bias, or something, or more likely, trying one cab at Guitar Center that happened to be lightweight, and then assuming 'they all sound that way'.

Again, no big deal, and as always, use what you like and what you want. Just want to make sure other readers get a more full picture of the cabs that are out there right now.

Again, there is no overall, average difference between neo and ceramic cabs in tone. Put 20 different brands and designs of ceramic cabs and compare them in a blind test with all else equal to 20 different brand and designs of neo/lightweight cabs, and no one would identify the 'type of cab' beyond the chance level.

Again, I can see where you dig those Mesa 10's... nice boxes. I can also see why you weren't particularly impressed with a given Markbass cab. I totally dig some, and think others are pretty mediocre.... thin low end, cheap tweeters.

Extended those experiencs to include 'all lightweight cabs versus heavier gear' is not really that helpful to TB readers.


:)

Ok fine, list some light weight cabs that will give me the same tone, quality of build, and power handling. Remember although they may be rated at 800 watts, they will not take but about half that before they come apart. Ampeg and Mesa are rated lower but are more in tune to what the cab will really handle.

Not trying to be a jerk here, but you have to understand why these little cabs were built in the first place. It wasn't because they sound as good as a large cab but with the price of gas and people driving smaller cars there was a market for this type of equipment.

I have tried more than one, they just sound too thin to me. Ampeg came out with a pro neo series, yet not one review of anyone using them on this site. Mesa boogie is not behind the times, they are not trying to sell to every tinnie bopper kid that wants a bass amp, they sell high quality great sounding stuff to professional musicians and others that appreciate great sound.
 
Ok fine, list some light weight cabs that will give me the same tone, quality of build, and power handling. Remember although they may be rated at 800 watts, they will not take but about half that before they come apart. Ampeg and Mesa are rated lower but are more in tune to what the cab will really handle.

Not trying to be a jerk here, but you have to understand why these little cabs were built in the first place. It wasn't because they sound as good as a large cab but with the price of gas and people driving smaller cars there was a market for this type of equipment.

I have tried more than one, they just sound too thin to me. Ampeg came out with a pro neo series, yet not one review of anyone using them on this site. Mesa boogie is not behind the times, they are not trying to sell to every tinnie bopper kid that wants a bass amp, they sell high quality great sounding stuff to professional musicians and others that appreciate great sound.
I've seen several reviews of the Pro Neos on here.
 
Ok fine, list some light weight cabs that will give me the same tone, quality of build, and power handling. Remember although they may be rated at 800 watts, they will not take but about half that before they come apart. Ampeg and Mesa are rated lower but are more in tune to what the cab will really handle.

Not trying to be a jerk here, but you have to understand why these little cabs were built in the first place. It wasn't because they sound as good as a large cab but with the price of gas and people driving smaller cars there was a market for this type of equipment.

I have tried more than one, they just sound too thin to me. Ampeg came out with a pro neo series, yet not one review of anyone using them on this site. Mesa boogie is not behind the times, they are not trying to sell to every tinnie bopper kid that wants a bass amp, they sell high quality great sounding stuff to professional musicians and others that appreciate great sound.

Wow.... you are on your own. Strange attitude, and quite a strange set of beliefs.

I have an SUV and can haul anything I want. Your dismissing of an entire category of gear due to 'small cars' is strange.

If you dig the Mesa cabs, be happy. Just don't assume that just because you dig them, they are somehow 'much better than anything else'. I've been through my share of Mesa gear, and it is top notch. No argument there.
 
If you guys wanna argue then take it out of my thread, it helps me not.

:mad::eyebrow::o

Sorry for the OT. Just hate when incorrect information gets posted in a thread. I will refrain from responding.

Hopefully, you got at least some useful information. There is no magic bullet out there. To get a small cab to sound 'big', you are going to pay for it, due to the very high quality driver needed. And, if you go too small (like a 110 or 108), it is just not going to be loud at all.

Again, the best combination of 'low end/volume/weight/size' for the gigging musician playing in a professional situation (i.e., needing the volume and low end to keep up with an unmic'd drummer), as, for softer gigs, a nice 112, and for larger gigs, either a second 112 or a 212.

There are exceptions, lik the Thunderchild 115 that is very small and lightweight. And, you don't need a totally custom deal. The Aguilar DB112 is GREAT sounding (happens to be ceramic) and the Genz Shuttle 6.2 112 is impressive and very small and lightweight. The Bergantino HD112 is smoking good sounding. Lots of options.

All these cabs sound quite different though, and unfortunately they have very low distribution levels and are hard to try in all but the largest US cities.

What is your playing situation. For small gigs and rehearsals, the Shuttle 6.2/112 will work wonderfully for that, and can be carried in one hand. Probably the best all-around small combo out there. The Mesa Walkabout Shuttle (which also happens to be lighweight and neo), is also a very good options when you want fat, tubey tone (versus the more crisp, modern Shuttle) in a relatively small and lightweight combo.

The little Markbass 121p (I think that is what it is called, the very small 112 combo with the LMIII as the head) is amazing for its size and weight, although I don't like that cheap piezo tweeter much. GREAT rehearsal amp and small gig combo.

Lots of options. However, stay away from a single 10 or single 8... pretty much a waste of money in a playing context.
 
If you guys wanna argue then take it out of my thread, it helps me not.

:mad::eyebrow::o

+1

Though they are not ultra small/lightweight, they are very managable and have a big sound, and that is the Genz NeoX 112's and 212's. Strong output and a tone that sits nice in a mix. Could get away with a 112 for small room, quieter gigs/rehearsals. The 212 ( or pair of 112's) will handle anything up to the point you and the drummer are both in the PA.


As far as this heavy cab nonsense, I can take any one of those Mesa's, clone it into a box that is 3/4, possibly even 2/3 the weight and it will sound exactly the same. Nobody could pick out any difference at all, until they went to pick it up/lift it.
 
Lots of options. However, stay away from a single 10 or single 8... pretty much a waste of money in a playing context.

I would agree..A single 8 is totally useless. The 10" is useable. But as you said Ken. In only the smallest of venues. Jumping up to a good 12, 2x10 etc. Is more what you want. I will second Ken's advice on the Berg HD112 or Aguilar DB112. My favorite 12s of all time. 2 HD112s will handle just about anything you would ever need.
 
The Greenboy Crazy8 line of cabs are small cabs with big sound. I've done some modeling with those Faitals helping a guy out with a build and they are quite impressive. They can basically do what a "normal" 10" bass guitar driver does. Meaning the 2x8 has performance about like a common 210 in a smaller package and can even take being pushed a little harder in the lows. The drivers ain't cheap, but they're definitely high performance.
 
I'm about 2 hrs away from playing my newly ordered HD112... (UPS where are you???!! LOL!) I'll be the FIRST to let you know if it is an option from my own experience. Seems it has been offered up on more than one occasion on this thread as an option for your needs...
 
Completely disagree. Thermal rating has little to do with performance, and actually little to do with how a cab handles power and low end.

And, there is NO correlation between weight and performance in amps or speakers these days. IMO you are listening with your ears.

Those Mesa cabs are nice though, but the weight to performance ratio is awful, given what is out there these days.

Don't make the mistake that some others do and try one neo loaded cab and think that is representative of the what is out there. That would be like me walking into a Guitar Center and playing one of those Guitar Center Acoustic cabs and thinking 'man, heavy speakers suck';). Remember that there is just as much variance across SMPS heads and neo cabs as there is across traditional power supply (heavy) heads and ceramic loaded cabs. Some are great, some suck ( or at least, some don't sound particularly good to some players).

And, there is NO correlation between weight and performance in amps or speakers these days. IMO you are listening with your ears

Then I wonder why the new Bergantinos you love so much packed on 26 pounds this year from the ones you have, 88 lbs for the 410 HD model thats almost Mesa territory.
 
Then I wonder why the new Bergantinos you love so much packed on 26 pounds this year from the ones you have, 88 lbs for the 410 HD model thats almost Mesa territory.

One more response, since you are again heading down the wrong logic path.

The AE line of Bergantino neo cabs was discontinued due to the spike in cost of neodymium, due to Chinese export laws. This pricing increase spurred quite a few manufacturers (like Genz Benz) to come out with relatively lightweight boxes using ceramic drivers. Jim just cancelled his neo line.

The cost has come down a bit again, so my guess is, you will see a new line of Bergantino lighterweight boxes in th future.

Again, ALL cabs sound different. Jim's HD line sounds different than the HT line which sounds different from the NV line which sounds different from the AE line. It isn't a 'better or worse' thing.

Again, sorry for the OT to the OP.
 
...The AE line of Bergantino neo cabs was discontinued due to the spike in cost of neodymium, due to Chinese export laws. This pricing increase spurred quite a few manufacturers (like Genz Benz) to come out with relatively lightweight boxes using ceramic drivers. Jim just cancelled his neo line.

The cost has come down a bit again, so my guess is, you will see a new line of Bergantino lighterweight boxes in th future...

I wouldn't count on that. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Jim may have had very good foresight to leave neo behind. Eminence no longer stocks neo magnets because of price volatility. If these new quotas drive prices sky high again, then neo as a magnet material could become a thing of the past. Bottom line is that this new move is a strictly political one. Forget the 40% reduction in mining permits for a moment and look again at what I think is the most important statement in this article "Chinese officials have expressed hope foreign companies that use rare earths will shift production to China and share technology with local partners". Make no mistake, this is absolutely what the new lower quotas are all about.
 
I wouldn't count on that. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Jim may have had very good foresight to leave neo behind. Eminence no longer stocks neo magnets because of price volatility. If these new quotas drive prices sky high again, then neo as a magnet material could become a thing of the past. Bottom line is that this new move is a strictly political one. Forget the 40% reduction in mining permits for a moment and look again at what I think is the most important statement in this article "Chinese officials have expressed hope foreign companies that use rare earths will shift production to China and share technology with local partners". Make no mistake, this is absolutely what the new lower quotas are all about.

Nice article, what a downer.
 

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