FWIW, Mesa uses neodymium speakers in some of their cabs too. All the walkabout/scout cabs and the Powerhouse 212s.
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Small speakers that sound 'big'
- Thread starter FourBanger
- Start date
I just heard that a huge neo operation competitive with the Chinese is opening in Malaysia. So we might have neo.
This whole speaker biz is a lot simpler than everyone is making it out to be. It's simple physics and the designer picks his compromises. (except for the other crazy project I'm involved in)
As a general rule I look at the vd of a speaker which in general gives an idea of how much air (volume) it will move. I have a lot of experience with the new small drivers and have even been involved in helping design some new ones. It really isn't a matter of cone size--it's the amount of air effectively moved and then the size of the motor and suspension will tell how it responds.
The Faital 8 incher has a vd of about 160 cc. The Eminence Deltalie 10 is likely better than most 10's you'll see in a bass cab and has a vd of 147cc. So the Faital in real world performance will keep up with that 10.
So the good news is that there are some great drivers out there that give us some cool new options. But there is no way that that single 8 will compete with a 15. It would take 4 of them. But you can get them to do it in a pretty small box. Say 24 x 24 x 13. Smaller than a 15 box with similar performance.
As far as a heavy box yielding a better sound than a light one---let's get back to simple physics. What we need is rigidity and the panels not resonating. A heavy box can do this. But so can a well designed lighter box with attention to bracing and breaking up panel resonances. Greenboy and Duke have paid considerable attention to this in their cabs.Composite boxes do this naturally---a properly designed composite box will perform every bit as well in terms of power and authority as the same box in heavy plywood at a fraction of the weight.. It'll just cost a lot more!
Speaker designers just pick their compromises and design goals. Roger was really smart at identifying a part of the market that really fits the sonic signature of his speaker. And he had custom drivers made to achieve that goal. Duke and Greenboy picked their sonic goals which were very different and did incredible jobs at achieving these goals.
But all of there guys had a resonable expectation of what their cabs would sound like before making them.
And I bet that their first attempts were damn close. That's what makes a good speaker designer.
The advantage (for the buyer anyway) of these small companies is that they work with lower overhead (and we make less money) than the big companies. No big company would ever be able to make a profit with composite cabs, nor could they have the materials and attention to detail of the top wood cab guys. A Fearful or a Thunderchild will sound better than a Mesa---and the Mesa is a great cab.
The big manufacturers typically can't be profitable using a lot of these top drivers that are used in the above mentioned cabs. There are other 8" cabs out there that claim high volume, bass, etc. But I'll tell you---none of them can afford to use the Faital 8" driver. It would bring the costs up too high. I've (and others I know) have researched the available 8" drivers and none of them come close to the 8PR200.And the Kappalite LF's are in a class of their own. But you won't see them in any of the top commercial manufacturers cabs.
Also, there are many different price points for neo drivers---so just saying that something is neo doesn't necessarily mean that it's high power and excursion.
And our cabs (well theirs anyway) don't look home made!
This whole speaker biz is a lot simpler than everyone is making it out to be. It's simple physics and the designer picks his compromises. (except for the other crazy project I'm involved in)
As a general rule I look at the vd of a speaker which in general gives an idea of how much air (volume) it will move. I have a lot of experience with the new small drivers and have even been involved in helping design some new ones. It really isn't a matter of cone size--it's the amount of air effectively moved and then the size of the motor and suspension will tell how it responds.
The Faital 8 incher has a vd of about 160 cc. The Eminence Deltalie 10 is likely better than most 10's you'll see in a bass cab and has a vd of 147cc. So the Faital in real world performance will keep up with that 10.
So the good news is that there are some great drivers out there that give us some cool new options. But there is no way that that single 8 will compete with a 15. It would take 4 of them. But you can get them to do it in a pretty small box. Say 24 x 24 x 13. Smaller than a 15 box with similar performance.
As far as a heavy box yielding a better sound than a light one---let's get back to simple physics. What we need is rigidity and the panels not resonating. A heavy box can do this. But so can a well designed lighter box with attention to bracing and breaking up panel resonances. Greenboy and Duke have paid considerable attention to this in their cabs.Composite boxes do this naturally---a properly designed composite box will perform every bit as well in terms of power and authority as the same box in heavy plywood at a fraction of the weight.. It'll just cost a lot more!
Speaker designers just pick their compromises and design goals. Roger was really smart at identifying a part of the market that really fits the sonic signature of his speaker. And he had custom drivers made to achieve that goal. Duke and Greenboy picked their sonic goals which were very different and did incredible jobs at achieving these goals.
But all of there guys had a resonable expectation of what their cabs would sound like before making them.
And I bet that their first attempts were damn close. That's what makes a good speaker designer.
The advantage (for the buyer anyway) of these small companies is that they work with lower overhead (and we make less money) than the big companies. No big company would ever be able to make a profit with composite cabs, nor could they have the materials and attention to detail of the top wood cab guys. A Fearful or a Thunderchild will sound better than a Mesa---and the Mesa is a great cab.
The big manufacturers typically can't be profitable using a lot of these top drivers that are used in the above mentioned cabs. There are other 8" cabs out there that claim high volume, bass, etc. But I'll tell you---none of them can afford to use the Faital 8" driver. It would bring the costs up too high. I've (and others I know) have researched the available 8" drivers and none of them come close to the 8PR200.And the Kappalite LF's are in a class of their own. But you won't see them in any of the top commercial manufacturers cabs.
Also, there are many different price points for neo drivers---so just saying that something is neo doesn't necessarily mean that it's high power and excursion.
And our cabs (well theirs anyway) don't look home made!
So with a large company 410 neo cab rated at 800 watts thermal and 56 pounds what do you think is the most watts the cab will actually handle before breakdown takes place, I would guess no more than 350 to 400 watts max.
Fearful cabs have such small distribution that I will never see one, so it doesn't matter how good they might be, they are not an option for me.
For those of you who posted that all commercial cabs are junk, they don't sound like junk when the right person uses them, maybe ones should pay more attention to their playing and worry less about the fact that their cab goes lower or higher than a commercial cab and uses smaller speakers to do so.
And what do you guys use to push that fearful cab, I bet its not a wallet size 6lb amp is it ?
He is pushing a 12/6 or a pair with that.
I push a 15/6 or a 1515/66/1 with a PF-500... or a
Peavey IPR pre/power rack set up
Peavey Classic 400
Peavey Mark VIII XP
I recently got a Tonehammer DI and it is giving me gas for a TH500.
Weight has no bearing on tone and volume output.
All commercial cabs aren't junk. (well most of them, anyway). There have been a lot of advances in speaker design and the commercial market is seeing some of that. (trickle down).
It's just the limitations of the commercial companies.
They have to make a profit and they have big overhead. They have to sell for cheap enough so that the distributors and dealer make a profit. So if I can buy my parts close to the cost of the big boys I just have my profits to worry about. So---a single 15 cab that I sell for $1000 might cost me $500 in materials. That's not a lot of hourly wage left over. (especially with composite)
The big companies would have to cut that material cost in half to make a profit.
So---the big companies can't afford to use the best components or the tedious construction methods---it's just unprofitable. I do believe that they do the best they can and come up with some nice products.
It's just that they can't afford to compete with the smaller manufacturers on the same playing field. And it's a nicer playing field.
It's just the limitations of the commercial companies.
They have to make a profit and they have big overhead. They have to sell for cheap enough so that the distributors and dealer make a profit. So if I can buy my parts close to the cost of the big boys I just have my profits to worry about. So---a single 15 cab that I sell for $1000 might cost me $500 in materials. That's not a lot of hourly wage left over. (especially with composite)
The big companies would have to cut that material cost in half to make a profit.
So---the big companies can't afford to use the best components or the tedious construction methods---it's just unprofitable. I do believe that they do the best they can and come up with some nice products.
It's just that they can't afford to compete with the smaller manufacturers on the same playing field. And it's a nicer playing field.
Fantastic to see a posting like this come along to show why TB can be such an amazing place, especially when the thread was at risk of being taken over by posts that show why TB can be such a difficult place.
My $0.02 can't compare to the expertise and clarity of this post, but I will add my subjective experience (and opinion) that I've completely converted over to "smaller" speakers and cabinets (and amps), and use them to get as big if not bigger sounds out of them than I did 20 years ago when I lugged around my wonderful but heavy gear. The first practice I used my new lightweight gear (<30lbs total for amp and cab) resulted in many comments about how much "bigger" my sound was than the old heavyweight (>100lbs total for amp and cab) that I got rid of.
My $0.02 can't compare to the expertise and clarity of this post, but I will add my subjective experience (and opinion) that I've completely converted over to "smaller" speakers and cabinets (and amps), and use them to get as big if not bigger sounds out of them than I did 20 years ago when I lugged around my wonderful but heavy gear. The first practice I used my new lightweight gear (<30lbs total for amp and cab) resulted in many comments about how much "bigger" my sound was than the old heavyweight (>100lbs total for amp and cab) that I got rid of.
Exactly right, and that is true for most if not all commercial products, I'm waiting for some college kids or small group of people to make a phone that will blow away anything we have today, I just hope they live near me so I can get one.
Just because I can I will point out that a 410 has exactly four times as many 10s as what this thread was about...
I don't know how that quote thing ended up like that, Ken. It was for the OP. Good point though about going on about 410's when he asked specifically about small cabs.
EA so made a VL-208 or something like that? KJung probably has experience with that one.
EA so made a VL-208 or something like that? KJung probably has experience with that one.
