So Many People Are Selling Their Foderas

[MVPBASS]

Because you could buy a vintage P AND a vintage J that will always be sought after long after Fodera's go out of style for that kind of scratch...

Comparing the value of a Fodera to a 35 year old Fender? Not very realistic comparison. I bought 2 of my Foderas new, played them for 5 years and sold them for more than I paid for them. The used Foderas that I bought 5-8 years ago I sold for more than i paid for them. That says alot about Fodera. Go buy a Fender today and sell it in 5 years, see if you get your money back.

 

[JimmyM]

Takes about 20 years for a Fender to appreciate in value.

 

[Just Thumpin']

At the end of 2011 we were up to roughly serial number 3,450. That is Customs only and includes basses AND guitars. The NYC's are not included in that historical number nor are the Standards. The roughly 300 number that I gave includes Customs and Standards. Remember, the Standards were released in January of 2011...

Regards,

J

I got that number from Jason.

 

[MVPBASS]

Takes about 20 years for a Fender to appreciate in value.

Definately, just imagine what a Fodera is going to be worth in 20 years

 

[ian_s]

Worth playing, that's all I need.

 

[seang15]

Dear Sean --

Thanks for the kind words. You raise a a very fair question and not one that is simple to answer...let me start by saying that we probably wish that our prices could be lower as much or more than anyone. Unfortunately, we set our prices based on what it actually costs us to run the shop in a manner that ensures the following:

1. We can pay everyone working in the shop a living wage with health benefits and provide a 401(k) Plan with a match so that they may save for their retirement;

2. We can build with the very finest materials.

3. We can build using methods that we believe yield the finest results.

4. We can build 100% of our instruments here in our Brooklyn shop with no outsourcing whatsoever so that we can personally be involved with every build.

5. We can be staffed at a level that allows for outstanding customer service and for every one of our customers to get all of the one-on-one attention they deserve when purchasing an instrument at this level.

5. The business can be financially stable enough to ensure that we can continue building instruments at this level well into the future. This necessitates proper succession planning which costs a lot of time and money given that it can easily take 5-10 years to properly train new people.

Now in terms of some hard numbers, a Custom Monarch 4 Deluxe with a Purpleheart Top and EMG P/J Pickups today would cost $7,380 (Street Price), not $10,000. This also would enable you to chose the tone woods that it is built from, your scale length, your neck profile (including sending us an instrument whose neck you love so that we could replicate it, if you so desired), the way the body is contoured, pickup spacing, bridge spacing. In short, everything can be customized at no additional charge.

Were you to desire a 4-string Fodera with no customization, presently we offer the Yin Yang Standard for $4,750. They are built the same way but there is no customization allowed.

Further, the prices of all of the materials that go into premium instruments have increased at a far higher rate than the general inflation rate.

In the past three years we have raised the base prices on our Custom instruments by a total of just 5% and we have also introduced Standard models with much lower pricing in an effort to provide more affordable versions of our most popular builds. We will continue doing this including a new "entry level" four string that will cost even less than the Yin Yang Standard.

Again, we too wish that our prices could be lower, but given that the first profitable year in our 29 year history was 2011, we just cannot make them so without radically changing how we build our instruments -- something that we'd rather not do.

Kindest regards,

Jason

Hi Jason, so sorry for the late reply! I have often thought about your reply since you've posted it. It really just sunk in, I suppose.

I lived in NY from 1969 (birth) until 2008, when I just realized I couldn't pay 10k, 12k, even 15 grand on property/school taxes...I started at 10k (2002), within a few years of home ownership was at 12k, and realized I would quickly be to 15k dollars (and beyond) given the many votes to raise budgets on Long Island. So...the high cost of living in NYC (yes, all 5 boroughs) including Brooklyn, and outer-lying areas, would certainly predicate the high costs of the instruments being built there.

I am now (since late 2008) in the Raleigh "Triangle" area of NC. We have many (most?) of the smaller, boutique amp and pedal builders in the country, if not the world, in this area. It's its claim to fame. They are all here together, and are stronger together. They aren't going anywhere. More power to them.

And yes, Brooklyn OWNS the bass building world! We all know that. This in addition to the several LI builders (All the chaps I mentioned, and perhaps more). And yes, Mike Pedulla and Ken Smith are just West of you in Manhattan. And of course, Thompson and Sadowsky are your neighbors (and others I am surely missing); that area is just a hotbed of bass builders. So...it is what it is. The world wants Fodera right where it is, the world pays for its prices. And they get a helluva lot for the prices!

I am submitting two photos, if you'd kindly: One is me with my too-soon departed Purpleheart Fodera, back in early 1987? This is the bass I took to the National Guitar Summer Workshop, in 1986. I took it to Harlem several times for lessons with Jerry Jemmott, in 86-87. I took it to performance arts school in my senior year in High School. I only had it 18 months, but man, those were some impressionable, important times for me! So...I yearn to replace this bass, exactly as built. (Swap the Kahler for...anything but a Kahler lol. And the EMGs for Seymours or Barts I suppose.) So yes, I reserve the right to change my mind, if and when convenient for me to do so LOL. I MUST have that purpleheart Monarch back!

The other pic is of me at Wooten Woods, Sept. 2010. Yep, Vic's Yin Yang

Thanks again Jason, for spending your own valuable time on this board!

Peace,
Sean G.

 

[libanass]

Do not forget guys, Fodera NEVER sacrifies quality, and gives so much attention to their clients..

I think other Luthiers that will try to do the same by selling their instruments for 2-3k tops, they won't be out there for long...

Believe me, companies such as Fender, MusicMan, and all these other lame stuff, make MUCH more money than Fodera will ever do.. These brands have been sacrificing their qualities over the years, and also doubling their production rate at a lower price.

Fodera is not affordable to anybody, and should NOT be, with 100 to 130 instruments per year, I don't think the few workers at Fodera will handle more than that, and the only way to do so, is sacrificing quality, which they and we don't want that to happen

IMO it's all a question of high demand/low supply, if you think it's too expensive, no one's there forcing you to buy one!

 

[dogofgod]

The audience only cares if it says Fender on the headstock. Anything else is a "rip off" in their mind.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Comparing the value of a Fodera to a 35 year old Fender? Not very realistic comparison. I bought 2 of my Foderas new, played them for 5 years and sold them for more than I paid for them. The used Foderas that I bought 5-8 years ago I sold for more than i paid for them. That says alot about Fodera. Go buy a Fender today and sell it in 5 years, see if you get your money back.

They can both be high dollar purchases so IMO it can be a fair comparison.

Vintage Fenders have a much longer track record and based on that a much larger potential for exponential value increases. By the same token, you can buy a new Fodera and lose money should you have to sell in the first few years and all bets are off beyond that. By all means not a knock on Fodera, the boutique market by and large is like that.

In 1997 I bought a Fender Jazz Deluxe 5 and five years later I sold it at a profit due to the price increase of the then current models. That factored into the resale value just like the uptick in new Fodera prices probably affected yours.

Bottom line, when it comes to sure things as far as resale, old Fenders have the obvious edge... and this has zip to do with build quality, playability, etc.

Definately, just imagine what a Fodera is going to be worth in 20 years

Unfortunately it doesn't appear to work that way. I've noticed that some people seem to think that and the market doesn't appear to back it up.

And I don't have to imagine... I have a twenty year old Fodera.

 

[Brad Johnson]

So, can anyone point me to all these cheap used Fodera's. I can't find them....

All you have to do is look often... and be ready.

Woodchuck found my Anthony Jackson Contrabass at a GC for $2500. Atomic Music here in Beltsville, MD has had several over the years, a decent fretless 5 Imperial that sat around for weeks before it sold for $2100, a gorgeous Emperor 5 that went for $3400. I recently bought a like new NYC Empire Deluxe 5 here on TB for $2100 delivered. I bought it because... it was $2100.


Where are you looking? And how often? Maybe that's the problem.

 

[Brad Johnson]

The audience only cares if it says Fender on the headstock. Anything else is a "rip off" in their mind.

If they even care about that. IME most audiences aren't gear whores. So who cares what's on the headstock as long as you get the work done?

 

[Brad Johnson]

If you really track resale of boutique instruments like I do, you'll see just how much of a hit most boutique basses take at resale time, particularly if there's a time constraint. Hint: if you're checking values on ebay, check completed auctions. A seller can ask for whatever they want, doesn't mean they'll get anywhere near an off the wall asking price. And funnily enough, many of the brands where you can take a multi-thousand dollar hit at resale time are the same ones some folks practically guarantee are the safest investments.

Not if you really pay attention.

 

[phishaholik]

I didn't read the whole thread. There seems to be so many people looking for a reason to hate on Fodera lately.


I personally sold a Fodera on Talkbass recently. The reason I sold it is, that I bought two Foderas and I kept the one that fit me better as a player. I've never even seen a Fodera locally, so I bought two so I could compare them and make an informed decision on such a large purchase. The person I sold it to bought it for a single recording project he was working on and he sold it after the recording was complete. That would be two of the Fodera sales seen here lately.

I also think that many people, like myself, bought the Yin Yang Standard as a way to try a Fodera and quickly stepped up to a custom instrument.

Finally, anyone who has taken even a basic course in statistics will tell you that a half dozen basses being for sale isn't even close to a large enough sample size to imply anything..........at all.


Michael

 

[Just Thumpin']

Dear Sean --

Thanks so much for posting those photos!!

Regards,

J

Hi Jason, so sorry for the late reply! I have often thought about your reply since you've posted it. It really just sunk in, I suppose.

I lived in NY from 1969 (birth) until 2008, when I just realized I couldn't pay 10k, 12k, even 15 grand on property/school taxes...I started at 10k (2002), within a few years of home ownership was at 12k, and realized I would quickly be to 15k dollars (and beyond) given the many votes to raise budgets on Long Island. So...the high cost of living in NYC (yes, all 5 boroughs) including Brooklyn, and outer-lying areas, would certainly predicate the high costs of the instruments being built there.

I am now (since late 2008) in the Raleigh "Triangle" area of NC. We have many (most?) of the smaller, boutique amp and pedal builders in the country, if not the world, in this area. It's its claim to fame. They are all here together, and are stronger together. They aren't going anywhere. More power to them.

And yes, Brooklyn OWNS the bass building world! We all know that. This in addition to the several LI builders (All the chaps I mentioned, and perhaps more). And yes, Mike Pedulla and Ken Smith are just West of you in Manhattan. And of course, Thompson and Sadowsky are your neighbors (and others I am surely missing); that area is just a hotbed of bass builders. So...it is what it is. The world wants Fodera right where it is, the world pays for its prices. And they get a helluva lot for the prices!

I am submitting two photos, if you'd kindly: One is me with my too-soon departed Purpleheart Fodera, back in early 1987? This is the bass I took to the National Guitar Summer Workshop, in 1986. I took it to Harlem several times for lessons with Jerry Jemmott, in 86-87. I took it to performance arts school in my senior year in High School. I only had it 18 months, but man, those were some impressionable, important times for me! So...I yearn to replace this bass, exactly as built. (Swap the Kahler for...anything but a Kahler lol. And the EMGs for Seymours or Barts I suppose.) So yes, I reserve the right to change my mind, if and when convenient for me to do so LOL. I MUST have that purpleheart Monarch back!

The other pic is of me at Wooten Woods, Sept. 2010. Yep, Vic's Yin Yang

Thanks again Jason, for spending your own valuable time on this board!

Peace,
Sean G.

 

[electracoyote]

I have learned a thing or two about thread starters that go kinda like this:

"Why are people selling off their Brand X bass? I have a Brand Y bass, and I would never part with it."

 

[MVPBASS]

They can both be high dollar purchases so IMO it can be a fair comparison.

I don't think comparing an antique to a brand new item is fair at all since an antiques age is usually what make it so valuable. A '61 Fender jazz and a brand new Foderal Imperial are about as different than you can get but they cost about the same. Fair?

And I don't have to imagine... I have a twenty year old Fodera.

20 years ago, most Fodera cost around $1000-$1200, now some go for as high as $10,000-$12,000

 

[MVPBASS]

I also think that many people, like myself, bought the Yin Yang Standard as a way to try a Fodera and quickly stepped up to a custom instrument.

Some people buy a Fodera that was custom made for someone else and simply want to order one that was made for them (try athat with a Fender). Some people switch from 4 to 5 strings so they sell their 4s to buy 5s, or 5s to 6s, etc.

 

[rockosocko]

I own two Foderas myself, had them for over twenty years. I can say in all honesty that there are basses out there that are just as good and far less money (I own a couple myself). I think perhaps some people find that out on their own and figure it makes more sense to sell one for four or five grand and pick up something like a Stambaugh or Bordwell for less than that.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Some people buy a Fodera that was custom made for someone else and simply want to order one that was made for them (try athat with a Fender). Some people switch from 4 to 5 strings so they sell their 4s to buy 5s, or 5s to 6s, etc.

Okay. Fender Custom Shop. just sayin'.

I don't think comparing an antique to a brand new item is fair at all since an antiques age is usually what make it so valuable. A '61 Fender jazz and a brand new Foderal Imperial are about as different than you can get but they cost about the same. Fair?

If the point is resale value and you're looking at spending similar money, other than quantity it makes sense to compare basses that are similarly priced at the time.

Sure they're different but the funds to purchase them can look strikingly similar.

20 years ago, most Fodera cost around $1000-$1200, now some go for as high as $10,000-$12,000

Huh?


Pretty sure they didn't. Would've made them less than half the price of a new Basic pre-Gibson Tobias (whose run ended around twenty years ago). Maybe you're thinking about another brand or time?

1992.

 

[MVPBASS]

Okay. Fender Custom Shop. just sayin'.

If the point is resale value and you're looking at spending similar money, other than quantity it makes sense to compare basses that are similarly priced at the time.

Sure they're different but the funds to purchase them can look strikingly similar.


Huh?


Pretty sure they didn't. Would've made them less than half the price of a new Basic pre-Gibson Tobias (whose run ended around twenty years ago). Maybe you're thinking about another brand or time?

1992.

Fender Custon Shop will make me a 36" scale, single cut 6 string with my name inlayed in the neck? Don't think so