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So Many People Are Selling Their Foderas
- Thread starter Manuel101
- Start date
I was close. Just correcting bad info earlier.
Haha, I was partly joking. I didn't mean people were STILL waiting on orders made in the 80's.
Nick, I was trying to elude thru humor (my failure sorry) the popularity of the brand. Yes indeed they have a waiting time because of the demand of their product for a very long time. I don’t remember them not having a backlog of orders.
fivestringdan said:
I got the humor, but I have run across many people that still think its a 20+ month wait. I was just making sure people know its not that long any more.
pablomigraine
Commercial User
Foderas have always been a great instrument... but lately they have REALLY stepped up their marketing campaign (and I'm not talking about internet & print ads.... I'm talking about all the things that can be done out in the marketplace to heat up your brand's appeal and perceived prestige).
Years ago the hot custom was Spector, then Roscoe has it's day in the sun, and right now it's Fodera. Not that they aren't always in demand, but they're definitely IT right now...They skillfully maintain the veneer of a small custom shop, which they are... but make no mistake they crank out a lot of basses every month....
I've played a couple.... they're top notch in terms of playability, workmanship etc and they're totally custom... but for me they don't offer anything that can't be gotten from several other builders for vastly less money. Same goes for Alembic. Aside from the specific bodystyle, there is simply nothing about the average $13,000 Alembic I cant get from a handful of other builders for around $5k. I would venture to guess a few of these sellers have found that out the hard way....
True, they are not "one guy building basses." Which is some ways is a good thing. How many threads are there on TB about "small custom shops" with ever-sliding delivery dates, variable comms and qc, etc? imho there are two main reasons that Fodera might be slightly more "it" right now. First are the standards which allow people to taste the Fodera mystique first-hand for less money (in my case, a gateway drug
). Second is the insanely great customer service (as anyone who has dealt with Jason and the rest of the crew will attest to) and more streamlined build/production. Vinny and Joey are still doing what they do best - building amazing instruments. And now the other parts of enabling craftsmen to do their thing are in place.IME there is a sweet-spot for shop size. I think that one-man operations are a great romantic idea, but it becomes *really* difficult for someone to pull it off and make deadlines. Get too big, and you lose the personal touch that makes going custom special. Fodera has found a nice balance for their instruments and their goals. As a customer I get great service in a timely fashion - in part because they've got enough people who know what they're doing to make things happen.
I've played/owned a lot of other high end basses. And while many of them are great, I personally haven't found any that give me what my Monarchs do. In part because of the people who made it. Similarly, I haven't found any other basses that give me what my Deep 4 does. In part because of the guy who makes it.
If another builder gives you what you want for a price you're willing to pay - congrats, you've won the bass lottery. Fodera did that for me. As for why I have sold a few, that's easy. I am so happy with the way my YYD and Monarch "fit" me, that I'm willing to go outside of my normal parameters and try some other models. I think you have to do the experiment. And like all experiments, some work, others don't. That isn't an indictment of the instrument or necessarily the player. There is a relationship between player and bass. And just like in another other relationship, sometimes intangible things make the difference between a good one and a not-so-good one.
Many folks on this board change out gear. Some do it much more than others it seems.
Cheap, good, excellent and incredible basses get put on the TB sales block all the time.
Expensive stuff may be more notable but it's hardly anything to do with the products themselves.
Cheap, good, excellent and incredible basses get put on the TB sales block all the time.
Expensive stuff may be more notable but it's hardly anything to do with the products themselves.
Just Thumpin'
Commercial User
- Mar 7, 2008
- 4,534
- 1,664
- Disclosures
- Manager and Partner, Fodera Guitars (10/14/09 - 12/16/19)
I am really not sure what this is referring to. In terms of "marketing," I am the entire marketing department and other than answering posts on Talk Bass -- which I was doing for fun long before I became a partner here -- I spend less than an hour a week on it. Most of our "marketing" involves answering questions for perspective clients. We have placed exactly 5 ads in magazines in the past 3 years (three of them to announce new products, we have no sales people, no artist relations department, etc.
As for production volumes, we generally build less than 15 Custom instruments per month...I'd hardly call that "cranking out a lot of basses." If you include our Standard line -- which are also built by the same people right here in Brooklyn -- we build roughly 300 instruments per YEAR.
Regards,
J
As for production volumes, we generally build less than 15 Custom instruments per month...I'd hardly call that "cranking out a lot of basses." If you include our Standard line -- which are also built by the same people right here in Brooklyn -- we build roughly 300 instruments per YEAR.
Regards,
J
Just Thumpin'
Commercial User
- Mar 7, 2008
- 4,534
- 1,664
- Disclosures
- Manager and Partner, Fodera Guitars (10/14/09 - 12/16/19)
This is exactly right. One of the things that we sat down and did long before I agreed to become a Partner here was determine what our optimal "scale" would be...big enough that we could offer customer service on par with the quality of the instruments and be a profitable, self-sustaining business, and small enough that every instrument that we make and every customer that we work with gets the personal attention and care that they deserve. This is why we will likely have wait times well into the future. Realistically we probably have demand for 2-3 times the number of Standards that we build, but we self-limit our volume to ensure our quality and customer service levels.
Regards,
J
Regards,
J
I have played a Fodera before, but IMO just like all other boutique basses I am not sure that they are worth extra scratch. With that being said, if you raise the four grand or so to buy one why would you want to turn around and sell it unless you are really hard up for the cash?
In terms of an instrument being "worth" the kind of money that a Fodera costs, there are tangibles and intangibles. And let me say up front that I've never owned a Fodera and I'm not really thrilled by them. However, the tangibles are fairly obvious: Premium materials and expert craftsmanship. The intangibles are many: the "feel" of the instrument; how it inspires you; whether it fits you well physically and connects with you emotionally; and so on.
Obviously, many people feel that a Fodera is worth it.
I recently played a Fodera 5-string that was selling used for somewhere in the $6000-$8000 range. I didn't like it, at least not six or eight thousand dollars worth. However, it's sold, so someone did like it that much. On the same trip, I played a used Alembic Mark King Balance K Omega 5-string. Now that was heavenly. I liked everything about it, from the low pass filters to the side LED's. If I had $8800 to spend on a bass, it would have come home with me. Alas, I did not.
I might also point out that there are occasional "flurries" of brand-names that show up in the classifieds or on ebay. I bought my LEJ 7 during a period when there were several LEJ's for sale on the TB classifieds. There have recently been a couple of LEJ 5's for sale here. This is not an indication of poor quality or sound IMO, but just the nature of us bass players trying more and different stuff.
Obviously, many people feel that a Fodera is worth it.
I recently played a Fodera 5-string that was selling used for somewhere in the $6000-$8000 range. I didn't like it, at least not six or eight thousand dollars worth. However, it's sold, so someone did like it that much. On the same trip, I played a used Alembic Mark King Balance K Omega 5-string. Now that was heavenly. I liked everything about it, from the low pass filters to the side LED's. If I had $8800 to spend on a bass, it would have come home with me. Alas, I did not.
I might also point out that there are occasional "flurries" of brand-names that show up in the classifieds or on ebay. I bought my LEJ 7 during a period when there were several LEJ's for sale on the TB classifieds. There have recently been a couple of LEJ 5's for sale here. This is not an indication of poor quality or sound IMO, but just the nature of us bass players trying more and different stuff.
Some guys like to try things and then flip them.
...if I had a buck for every time someone on TB buys a new bass and says, "this is a keeper", then it is up for sale a month or so later...well, I could buy another Fodera
And that's just me....
Well, Fodera ruined my G.A.S. life
I will NEVER sell my Fodera, I am instead selling everything I ever owned to afford another Fodera, I CANNOT appreciate ANY other bass anymore since I started playing Fodera, what else?
Damn you being so expensive
but you're worth it, in someway...
Actually, I think 50% of those who are selling their Foderas are doing so to afford another Fodera, or to get a custom new Fodera, 40% due to economic crisis (well, let's face it, when you need money, you can always sell your Fodera... without mentioning all the crying and stuff later
), then the last 10% are changes of tastes, or simply, quiting bass!
Am I right?
I will NEVER sell my Fodera, I am instead selling everything I ever owned to afford another Fodera, I CANNOT appreciate ANY other bass anymore since I started playing Fodera, what else?
Damn you being so expensive
but you're worth it, in someway...Actually, I think 50% of those who are selling their Foderas are doing so to afford another Fodera, or to get a custom new Fodera, 40% due to economic crisis (well, let's face it, when you need money, you can always sell your Fodera... without mentioning all the crying and stuff later
), then the last 10% are changes of tastes, or simply, quiting bass!Am I right?
Just Thumpin' said:
Hi Jason, thanks for adding your comments, and using your personal time to answer questions here! I know everybody appreciates it.
I had a Monarch made back in 1986. It had a purpleheart top, EMG pups (something I would never repeat), Kahler bar (also something I would never do again of course), neck through body. A switch for tbe preamp. $1250 including all options. It was the love of my life.
For a year. Being the brainless 18 year old I was, I sold it for a song. I will forever regret it.
Now that I am all grown up (kinda), and have a real job (kinda), I can in no way shape or form purchase a Fodera. I mean, technically, who really can? In this economy, it seems perverse to charge ten to twenty grand on a stringed instrument. Perhaps a soloist in a symphony somewhere in Europe should spend twenty grand on a carved contrabass. But for an electric bass, I don't get it. And of course I have owned one, back when the shop was just starting out.
If you look at inflation, my $1250 would be about $2500 to $3000 tops today. Why does the Monarch with the options I mentioned cost ten grand?
A baby born today, will cost 300,000 dollars to put through college. My kids have six and ten years, respective to their ages, before they get there. Ten grand in a 529 savings plan is more like twenty or more grand, if you factor in tax benefits. Same can be said about Roth IRA. Much better investment.
There's a place for boutique instruments. Just east of you, builders like David Segal, Kevin Zimmerly, Abe Rivera, Roy Hutchinson (Roi basses) have been building as long, or lOnger, in the case of Abe. They charge about 1/4 on average for their exceptional basses. I hope and pray folks Google their names and can decide for themselves!
Thanks again Jason. FWIW, I will never forget my Fodera.
Peace,
Sean
^ I hate to be the guy that utters the cliche, but really, it's straight supply and demand. Demand for Foderas is through the roof due to their reputation built over decades, and as the guy said, they only produce 300 of the things per year. Amplified demand and limited supply = high price.
Not everyone is in the same economic boat as working stiffs like you or I. There are plenty of folks who are either in profession with a relatively inelastic demand curve (for example, heart surgeons) or invested wisely during the recent crash or earlier and have plenty of discretionary funds. The Ferrari dealership in Scottsdale is selling plenty of $200,000 sports cars, but not because guys like me are buying them.
edit : as far as price perversity is concerned, someone could easily make the identical argument about, say, USA Fenders which are priced at $1000. I mean, if I can get a good Indonesia Ibanez for $250 or whatever, isn't it crazy to be selling basses that cost four times that? Everybody has a different price target, and there are great basses available in almost all of them. That's what makes the current instrument market so cool.
For the curious, I play a Zon
Just Thumpin'
Commercial User
- Mar 7, 2008
- 4,534
- 1,664
- Disclosures
- Manager and Partner, Fodera Guitars (10/14/09 - 12/16/19)
Dear Sean --
Thanks for the kind words. You raise a a very fair question and not one that is simple to answer...let me start by saying that we probably wish that our prices could be lower as much or more than anyone. Unfortunately, we set our prices based on what it actually costs us to run the shop in a manner that ensures the following:
1. We can pay everyone working in the shop a living wage with health benefits and provide a 401(k) Plan with a match so that they may save for their retirement;
2. We can build with the very finest materials.
3. We can build using methods that we believe yield the finest results.
4. We can build 100% of our instruments here in our Brooklyn shop with no outsourcing whatsoever so that we can personally be involved with every build.
5. We can be staffed at a level that allows for outstanding customer service and for every one of our customers to get all of the one-on-one attention they deserve when purchasing an instrument at this level.
5. The business can be financially stable enough to ensure that we can continue building instruments at this level well into the future. This necessitates proper succession planning which costs a lot of time and money given that it can easily take 5-10 years to properly train new people.
Now in terms of some hard numbers, a Custom Monarch 4 Deluxe with a Purpleheart Top and EMG P/J Pickups today would cost $7,380 (Street Price), not $10,000. This also would enable you to chose the tone woods that it is built from, your scale length, your neck profile (including sending us an instrument whose neck you love so that we could replicate it, if you so desired), the way the body is contoured, pickup spacing, bridge spacing. In short, everything can be customized at no additional charge.
Were you to desire a 4-string Fodera with no customization, presently we offer the Yin Yang Standard for $4,750. They are built the same way but there is no customization allowed.
Further, the prices of all of the materials that go into premium instruments have increased at a far higher rate than the general inflation rate.
In the past three years we have raised the base prices on our Custom instruments by a total of just 5% and we have also introduced Standard models with much lower pricing in an effort to provide more affordable versions of our most popular builds. We will continue doing this including a new "entry level" four string that will cost even less than the Yin Yang Standard.
Again, we too wish that our prices could be lower, but given that the first profitable year in our 29 year history was 2011, we just cannot make them so without radically changing how we build our instruments -- something that we'd rather not do.
Kindest regards,
Jason
Thanks for the kind words. You raise a a very fair question and not one that is simple to answer...let me start by saying that we probably wish that our prices could be lower as much or more than anyone. Unfortunately, we set our prices based on what it actually costs us to run the shop in a manner that ensures the following:
1. We can pay everyone working in the shop a living wage with health benefits and provide a 401(k) Plan with a match so that they may save for their retirement;
2. We can build with the very finest materials.
3. We can build using methods that we believe yield the finest results.
4. We can build 100% of our instruments here in our Brooklyn shop with no outsourcing whatsoever so that we can personally be involved with every build.
5. We can be staffed at a level that allows for outstanding customer service and for every one of our customers to get all of the one-on-one attention they deserve when purchasing an instrument at this level.
5. The business can be financially stable enough to ensure that we can continue building instruments at this level well into the future. This necessitates proper succession planning which costs a lot of time and money given that it can easily take 5-10 years to properly train new people.
Now in terms of some hard numbers, a Custom Monarch 4 Deluxe with a Purpleheart Top and EMG P/J Pickups today would cost $7,380 (Street Price), not $10,000. This also would enable you to chose the tone woods that it is built from, your scale length, your neck profile (including sending us an instrument whose neck you love so that we could replicate it, if you so desired), the way the body is contoured, pickup spacing, bridge spacing. In short, everything can be customized at no additional charge.
Were you to desire a 4-string Fodera with no customization, presently we offer the Yin Yang Standard for $4,750. They are built the same way but there is no customization allowed.
Further, the prices of all of the materials that go into premium instruments have increased at a far higher rate than the general inflation rate.
In the past three years we have raised the base prices on our Custom instruments by a total of just 5% and we have also introduced Standard models with much lower pricing in an effort to provide more affordable versions of our most popular builds. We will continue doing this including a new "entry level" four string that will cost even less than the Yin Yang Standard.
Again, we too wish that our prices could be lower, but given that the first profitable year in our 29 year history was 2011, we just cannot make them so without radically changing how we build our instruments -- something that we'd rather not do.
Kindest regards,
Jason
I'm about to drop $7000 on windows for my condo.
Windows.
Fodera prices, sadowsky prices, do not seem unreasonable to me for what you are getting. There are basses out there that I feel have unreasonable prices, but not these.
And as for the why so many for sale question, it's a silly premise. There have been times when there were 6 or 8 NYC sadowskys, zons, mtds, etc for sale at once. And times with none. And often a bass in this price range, bought sight unseen, will flip 4 or 5 times before it finds a permanent home. Then you never see them for sale again. Says nothing about the quality of the bass, it's all personal. You gotta be pretty happy with a 3k+ bass to avoid the desire to sell it.
Windows.
Fodera prices, sadowsky prices, do not seem unreasonable to me for what you are getting. There are basses out there that I feel have unreasonable prices, but not these.
And as for the why so many for sale question, it's a silly premise. There have been times when there were 6 or 8 NYC sadowskys, zons, mtds, etc for sale at once. And times with none. And often a bass in this price range, bought sight unseen, will flip 4 or 5 times before it finds a permanent home. Then you never see them for sale again. Says nothing about the quality of the bass, it's all personal. You gotta be pretty happy with a 3k+ bass to avoid the desire to sell it.
Jason, can you hint at what this new, even cheaper entry fodera is? Based on the old NYC line or what?
"We wish that our prices could be lower."
Apologies in advance, but I had to chuckle at that.
I was imagining telling that to a club hiring my band, telling them that we just couldn't afford to charge them less than, say, $2k for the evening, and hearing their response (which would be, "hey, no problem, we'll hire a band where your wish - a lower price for your service - will come true ... except that we'll be paying that lower price for another band's service")
Nice to be able to charge that kind of $$ for your product or service, and get it. More power to 'ya.
Apologies in advance, but I had to chuckle at that.
I was imagining telling that to a club hiring my band, telling them that we just couldn't afford to charge them less than, say, $2k for the evening, and hearing their response (which would be, "hey, no problem, we'll hire a band where your wish - a lower price for your service - will come true ... except that we'll be paying that lower price for another band's service")
Nice to be able to charge that kind of $$ for your product or service, and get it. More power to 'ya.
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