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So your bass has a hum

#82
I hear shielding a bass is super serious business. If one is to take even the smallest shortcut, it reflects poorly on that person as a human being, and the shame of that failure will be visited upon their family for generations to come.

Friends don't let friends take shortcuts on shielding jobs. It's the LAW.
 
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#83
BlueTalon said:
You made a lot of good points, but I gotta ask -- have you ever had an instance where the conductive adhesive on copper shielding tape has dried out or lost conductivity? I have never had that happen. If you have experienced it, then I suggest it was probably because you didn't fully engage the adhesive to the wood when you first put it on.

I use multiple layers of thin (0.6mm) copper tape with conductive adhesive, and I press down hard on every bit of the tape with the back of my fingernail or spoon or something. That seats the adhesive firmly onto the wood, and after that it isn't going anywhere. It also smoothes out any wrinkles that might have arisen when I laid down the tape. That said, I also use solder. But solder isn't going to make the adhesive stick to the wood any better, and I don't use a "gob" of solder anywhere.

Oh, and copper tape with conductive adhesive is not expensive. You'll pay a lot more than you have to if you buy it from StewMac, where it is expensive, but if you get it from ebay, it's probably cheaper than you can find in a hardware store with non-conductive adhesive (seriously, $6 for a 100' roll!).

One more thing -- since the purpose of shielding is to conduct unwanted energy to ground, you want it to conduct as best as it possibly can. Therefore, it is silly to intentionally use copper foil that has non-conductive adhesive. If cost isn't an issue, and it's not, then there isn't any reason to prefer using non-conductive adhesive over conductive adhesive.
Click to expand...

I'll admit I've never seen the conducive adhesive fail. I'm just paranoid! :) But the reason I'm paranoid is that I've seen lots of old pickups and transformers with various kinds of tape on them that has dried horribly! Sure that wasn't conductive , but still... So I figure this way: I've SEEN most tape adhesives dry out in time. Sure it may take 20 or 40 years so if you are flipping basses in 5 -10 years you probably have no worries. But one thing I know is that a solder gob between two copper pieces NEVER dries out! So that is what I do as "insurance".

Yes, pressing down is important. What I do is get a bunch of new pencils and then using the eraser end I rub it all over the cavity to press the adhesive down. Works great. And when you need even MORE pressure I use a cheap artist's paint brush with plastic handles and you use the sort of rounded pointed end of the handle to REALLY rub things down. Also works well to "poke" holes in copper for screws etc. You just rub all over the copper like you are taking a rubbing off a stone.

And you are right if cost is no issue there is NO reason NOT to use conductive adhesive if you are soldering too. I don't only because I've got a big stack of foil I bought cheap from a stained glass house. It makes no difference because I always solder ALL seams completely! I know I said "gob" of solder and that is the minimum, but I much prefer a really nice shiny soldered joint along the whole length. But it does take more work and face it, it doesn't conduct electricity any better!

But I still make the point that when properly soldered and grounded copper foil NEVER fails to shield hum and noise properly. I've also seen conductive paint do an equally effective job, BUT I've also seen conductive paint NOT do a completely effective shielding job depending on the brand of paint or the mood the paint is in that day. So that is why I always use copper in spite of the extra effort.
 
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#84
I'm hoping the Stew Mac paint is as high a quality as their other products. The reviews of their paint indicate that their paint works great. Any of you guys have any experience with the Stew Mac paint? I'll find out soon enough but always interested to hear about other peoples experiences. And great points about the value of soldering.
 
#85
DiabolusInMusic said:
If I said "I think you like to argue," you would counter with a post telling me about how you don't like to argue. Once again, I am not interested in useless bickering and I am not interested in changing your opinion, please stop attempting to change mine. Both opinions are equally valid and I am getting a little bit tired of your "I am better than you" posts. There are different perspectives all around the world, just because they differ from yours does not make them incorrect.
Click to expand...

Pot --> Kettle.

I don't begrudge anyone the right to their opinion, and you are right about people not being incorrect just because they disagree with me. I never said otherwise. But while everyone has the right to an opinion, they don't have the right for their opinion to be equally valid -- that is determined by what the opinion is based on.

And sometimes you are just plain wrong. You said things like "If you put an ohm meter to your shielding and your bridge you will see a resistance, that is how you know it was connected" and "I know we are adding a conductive material that indicates a resistance when you put a meter to it, hence adding resistance" and "Copper has the highest resistance." I still don't know if you have a grasp on that yet. (And you don't have to be an electronics expert to have a basic understanding of stuff.)

My problem with your opinions is that you treat them as statements of fact, and then they change. You went from "I should add I have not busted out a meter when doing a shielding job for years. The job either works or it doesn't and I have enough experience (plus it isn't that hard) that I can visually detect where any shielding or connections need improvement" and "Most TBers using this guide will probably not have a meter on hand, or ever in their life... I have never had an issue that couldn't be visually seen when completing a shielding job" to "I stand by my advice of using a ohm meter to see a resistance among the shielding to ensure the connection has been made" in a matter of two days.

You depict yourself as a shielding expert, to the point that you started a thread on a complete shielding job specifically to refer people to -- presumably that means you think shielding is important. But you went from "You just need to tape the entire cavity, making sure to leave no gaps" to "Every sealed passive pickup I have used is shielded internally, unless it has some kind of flaw no shielding should be required in the rest of the bass" (all while completely missing my point about the educational value, for those who haven't done it before, of taking plenty of time to do a complete shielding job). If you can't see the inherent inconsistency and irony in that, then you're just not capable of being objective.


For the record, I'm not trying to change your opinion. I don't give a rat-crap about your opinion. I fully accept the fact that your opinion is more likely to become more firmly entrenched in opposition to anything I say, simply because I say it, than it is to be persuaded by it. If this thread was just about your opinions vs. my opinions regarding shielding, I would never have posted in it.
 
#86
bassbenj said:
I'll admit I've never seen the conducive adhesive fail. I'm just paranoid! :) But the reason I'm paranoid is that I've seen lots of old pickups and transformers with various kinds of tape on them that has dried horribly! Sure that wasn't conductive , but still... So I figure this way: I've SEEN most tape adhesives dry out in time. Sure it may take 20 or 40 years so if you are flipping basses in 5 -10 years you probably have no worries. But one thing I know is that a solder gob between two copper pieces NEVER dries out! So that is what I do as "insurance".

Yes, pressing down is important. What I do is get a bunch of new pencils and then using the eraser end I rub it all over the cavity to press the adhesive down. Works great. And when you need even MORE pressure I use a cheap artist's paint brush with plastic handles and you use the sort of rounded pointed end of the handle to REALLY rub things down. Also works well to "poke" holes in copper for screws etc. You just rub all over the copper like you are taking a rubbing off a stone.

And you are right if cost is no issue there is NO reason NOT to use conductive adhesive if you are soldering too. I don't only because I've got a big stack of foil I bought cheap from a stained glass house. It makes no difference because I always solder ALL seams completely! I know I said "gob" of solder and that is the minimum, but I much prefer a really nice shiny soldered joint along the whole length. But it does take more work and face it, it doesn't conduct electricity any better!

But I still make the point that when properly soldered and grounded copper foil NEVER fails to shield hum and noise properly. I've also seen conductive paint do an equally effective job, BUT I've also seen conductive paint NOT do a completely effective shielding job depending on the brand of paint or the mood the paint is in that day. So that is why I always use copper in spite of the extra effort.
Click to expand...

I am totally with you. I use copper exclusively. I solder also, and I do it for insurance. It's just that when you said "gob" earlier, I had in my mind a lump of solder, not a lot of well applied solder.

And one thing about solder that hasn't been mentioned is that, even if you don't trust the adhesive, soldering still helps copper shielding to stay in place. It's not going to help the adhesive stick any better, but it will help the copper to retain its form, and that's going to help hold it in place (if the adhesive ever does start to dry out).
 
#88
Someoneiswrongoninternet_zpscbf254cc.png
 
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#90
BlueTalon said:
Wow, that's a helpful insight on shielding.
Click to expand...

My insightful post was on page 4. This last post was a bit of lighthearted commentary on the ongoing pissing contest y'all are having. Glad you're still here to keep the thread pure and clean though. I sincerely apologize for attempting to interject some fun on this most solemn of threads.
 
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#91
BlueTalon said:
Pot --> Kettle.

I don't begrudge anyone the right to their opinion, and you are right about people not being incorrect just because they disagree with me. I never said otherwise. But while everyone has the right to an opinion, they don't have the right for their opinion to be equally valid -- that is determined by what the opinion is based on.

And sometimes you are just plain wrong. You said things like "If you put an ohm meter to your shielding and your bridge you will see a resistance, that is how you know it was connected" and "I know we are adding a conductive material that indicates a resistance when you put a meter to it, hence adding resistance" and "Copper has the highest resistance." I still don't know if you have a grasp on that yet. (And you don't have to be an electronics expert to have a basic understanding of stuff.)

My problem with your opinions is that you treat them as statements of fact, and then they change. You went from "I should add I have not busted out a meter when doing a shielding job for years. The job either works or it doesn't and I have enough experience (plus it isn't that hard) that I can visually detect where any shielding or connections need improvement" and "Most TBers using this guide will probably not have a meter on hand, or ever in their life... I have never had an issue that couldn't be visually seen when completing a shielding job" to "I stand by my advice of using a ohm meter to see a resistance among the shielding to ensure the connection has been made" in a matter of two days.

You depict yourself as a shielding expert, to the point that you started a thread on a complete shielding job specifically to refer people to -- presumably that means you think shielding is important. But you went from "You just need to tape the entire cavity, making sure to leave no gaps" to "Every sealed passive pickup I have used is shielded internally, unless it has some kind of flaw no shielding should be required in the rest of the bass" (all while completely missing my point about the educational value, for those who haven't done it before, of taking plenty of time to do a complete shielding job). If you can't see the inherent inconsistency and irony in that, then you're just not capable of being objective.

For the record, I'm not trying to change your opinion. I don't give a rat-crap about your opinion. I fully accept the fact that your opinion is more likely to become more firmly entrenched in opposition to anything I say, simply because I say it, than it is to be persuaded by it. If this thread was just about your opinions vs. my opinions regarding shielding, I would never have posted in it.
Click to expand...

BlueTalon, my posts have never once been rude or disrespectful. I apologize if at some point you took offense but I have done nothing other than state my beliefs and opinions. I have not attacked your stance, I even included information about shielding the wire cavities. I have also owned up to my faults and not attempted to defend my inaccurate information. You include things like "how hard is that to understand?" and "don't you understand that?" in your posts. Phrases like this indicate you do not respect my opinions and beliefs. These are hostile attempts to bait me into an argument and diminish my contribution. That is not constructive to a conversation. I could sit here and offer counterpoints until I am blue in the face on why I don't feel a person should do unnecessary tasks only to have you express your beliefs once again. I do not see the point in this, the two opinions are equally valid. There is no wrong answer, just as there is no right answer in what shielding material is best, it is a matter of personal preference.

This is DIY guide, not a university textbook. A DIY guide does not require science, it requires an issue, some instructions on fixing the issue, and troubleshooting. I am aware of what a faraday cage is and the goal of shielding from what I have learned here on TB, I do not think the average user cares about that, they care about getting their bass quiet. If a user cares about this there is plenty of information on the subject. I got tired of repeating the same instructions verbatim to user after user so I made my own guide that I could simply reference. I did not put it up here as the be all and end all of all things RF-interference related. I have helped plenty of people shield their basses on Talkbass and in person, I don't intend to stop any time soon.
 
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#94
Be very careful grounding. I had a hum if not touching strings, so I jammed a wire under the bridge, then taped it to my body. At a show I went to the Mike and got shocked so bad it knocked me back, shot sparks into my mouth like a mig welder. Melted the 58 wire cover, killed one of my teeth . I had the vid posted on YouTube under redseedlesslive migjt still be there. Oh and I totally forgot the song.
 
#95
flameworker said:
Be very careful grounding. I had a hum if not touching strings, so I jammed a wire under the bridge, then taped it to my body. At a show I went to the Mike and got shocked so bad it knocked me back, shot sparks into my mouth like a mig welder. Melted the 58 wire cover, killed one of my teeth . I had the vid posted on YouTube under redseedlesslive migjt still be there. Oh and I totally forgot the song.
Click to expand...

Brings new meaning to the term 'live mic !' Ouch...
 
#96
flameworker said:
Be very careful grounding. I had a hum if not touching strings, so I jammed a wire under the bridge, then taped it to my body. At a show I went to the Mike and got shocked so bad it knocked me back, shot sparks into my mouth like a mig welder. Melted the 58 wire cover, killed one of my teeth . I had the vid posted on YouTube under redseedlesslive migjt still be there. Oh and I totally forgot the song.
Click to expand...

I got zapped like that once. Not as bad as you did from the sound of it, but bad enough that it made me skittish about singing while playing. For a long time after that, I would hold my bass up to the mic and touch the strings to it before my lips got anywhere near it.
 
#99
A quick "last sanity check" question about Shielding particularly regarding the pickups...

I assume the shielding of the pickup covers, and the Shielding applied to the bottom of the pickup cover / pickup that should make contact to each other, and THEN the copper that covers the bottom of the screw holes will make connection to the screw, in turn that screw, will pierce the copper on the bottom, making contact... So there really only needs to be an electrical path from here to the control cavity correct? So a slim gauge, like 22 or 24 ga ground wire run through the channel with the pickup wires, soldered copper to copper should provide the path there.

On a Jazz Bass, as long as the copper shield from the control cavity overlaps and makes connection with the control cover, I should complete the circuit correct? I don't need to add yet another wire from the copper in the control cavity to the pots do I?
 
#100
Big Hoss said:
A quick "last sanity check" question about Shielding particularly regarding the pickups...

I assume the shielding of the pickup covers, and the Shielding applied to the bottom of the pickup cover / pickup that should make contact to each other, and THEN the copper that covers the bottom of the screw holes will make connection to the screw, in turn that screw, will pierce the copper on the bottom, making contact... So there really only needs to be an electrical path from here to the control cavity correct? So a slim gauge, like 22 or 24 ga ground wire run through the channel with the pickup wires, soldered copper to copper should provide the path there.

On a Jazz Bass, as long as the copper shield from the control cavity overlaps and makes connection with the control cover, I should complete the circuit correct? I don't need to add yet another wire from the copper in the control cavity to the pots do I?
Click to expand...

Yes sir. I used to run a wire to the cavity covers but I have found this process to be a time-saver and a space saver, some wire routes get pretty tight with 4 wires. I have been using the screw through copper method for the last while with great success, just ensure you have conductive adhesive. Also ensure you do not connect your shielding to the pickup, you will get no output.

If your plate is getting a ground connection and connected to the cavity, then you do not need to ground your control cavity. I ground the control cavity as a common ground and take my pickup cavity grounds from that point.

I hope that helps.
 

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