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"Some people are just born with it" - BS

#41
The guy just came to my place today to pick up some gear he left at the rehearsal space.

It's all good and we are parting on very good terms. He realizes he just isn't cut out for learning or playing cover tunes...even if he's allowed to improvise them. His heart is into writing his own music.

He does want to record his originals sometime in the not to distant future and wants the drummer and I to record our parts to them. I told him we both needed each other at this moment in time. Not so much to play together in a band, but for him to inspire me and get me off my lazy ass to force me to realize that I can indeed go back to playing full time. He needed me to wake him up to his true nature as well. We both learned from this experience and there aren't any hard feelings any longer.

Was a very good talk. :)

So now I'm amped up to play with the new version of the band. Really, all thanks to this guitar player, because without him I'd probably still be sitting and complaining about playing in a classic rock cover band once a month instead of living the life I was "born to live". LOL.

It's all good.
 
#42
teleharmonium said:
You show me someone that was "born with it", and I'll show you a person who worked at it when you weren't watching them.
Click to expand...

EXACTLY!

Being a great musician is very simple. You need only 3 little things:

1. A decent instrument to get started on.
2. Some basic lessons to point you in the right direction.
3. 10 to 20 thousand hours of practice.

No talent necessary!

When someone says, "I'm not as talented as you!" it means, "I would never spend 10 to 20 thousand hours practicing, as you have done!" And it's to their credit - they probably have better social skills, a better career, and a beautiful family.

But in my mind, there is no such thing as natural talent (excluding the outliers, like the villager who never touched a violin in her life but can play any symphony after hearing it once. That's a freak of nature, not talent. :) )
 
#43
walterw said:
there's that apocryphal story about ZZ top in their early days trying to back up lightnin' hopkins, and being subjected to the roller-coaster ride trying to follow his song structure.

when one of the guys brought it up, hopkins is supposed to have said, "lightnin' change when lightnin' wanna change."

when that guy is as good as lightnin' hopkins, then he can act like that. until then, you were right to give him the boot.
Click to expand...

I had the honor of backing up Lightnin' on two occasions and can vouch for this. Once with his drummer and once with Doyle Bramhall on drums. If the looks he gave you when you missed one of his off time changes could kill, I would be dead twice over.

Another band I was with was booked to open for him. We had a van break down and had to cancel, but got a great review in local paper. I heard the reporter was fired over that.
 
#45
Hmm... I gotta disagree with the whole "we're all born with the same slate" theory. Sure, you can develop a talent with hard work and dedication, but I believe there's something you need to have been born with. These guys haven't even been on the planet for 1500 hours, let alone 10,000:

Igor Falecki drummer - 4 years old - YouTube
Invalid Link Removed
4yo piano prodigy - Shuan Hern Lee - YouTube

That's not to say you can't work at it. Some of us might take a little longer for the switch to come on, but I believe you need to have been born with the seed to nurture and develop. I've met guys who have dedicated their lives to a lost cause when it comes to music and STILL can't play.


Ever hear of Danny Sveinson? An 8 year old (Well, he's probably 20 now) who played with Les Paul, was on Leno, had a documentary (The Rock And Roll Kid) made about him?
 
#47
I tend to agree that we are each born with a certain amount of natural talent for something. There are people who don't have the "natural" ability but work their butts off to gain skill and then there are people who have all the natural ability in the world but don't really work at it very hard - both of those people will ultimately fall short of the achievements that people who possess natural ability and have the dedication to work at it achieve.

In sports, the "natural" athlete can usually be pretty good in high school, maybe even good enough to get a college scholarship, maybe even get to the pros in their sport if they work at it even a little bit. The non-gifted kid who works his fanny off can get to that same level sometimes, but neither of those two will be an all time great in their sport. The Michael Jordans of the world, Kobe Bryants, Peyton Mannings, Tom Bradys, those guys have a ton of natural ability AND they work extremely hard at their sport. Steve Alford had some natural ability, but not a ton, and he worked VERY hard, but he wasn't a very good pro because he just didn't have enough natural ability.

Music's the same way. Most of us on here fall into the work very hard at it, but just don't have the same natural ability as an Oteil, Victor, Marcus, etc... Then there are guys who have a ton of ability and seem to be able to pick up their instrument very fast, but they never get to that super pro level because they just don't work at it very hard, or at least not as hard as they should. Then there's Oteil, Victor, Marcus, Stanley....
 
#48
I wonder where they'd be at without any early childhood influences, mentoring, or support. Think any of them would be where they are today if their life's circumstances had been entirely different?

I know quite a few kids who have boat loads of talent as artists and I do what I can, but they lack encouragement and support from their families and friends. They would be so much further along if they had that.

We only see how these famous "talented" people turned out. We never see those that might be that person "born" with "it" but for whatever reason it never flourished with them.
 
#49
Muttleybass said:
Hmm... I gotta disagree with the whole "we're all born with the same slate" theory. Sure, you can develop a talent with hard work and dedication, but I believe there's something you need to have been born with. These guys haven't even been on the planet for 1500 hours, let alone 10,000:

Igor Falecki drummer - 4 years old - YouTube
Invalid Link Removed
4yo piano prodigy - Shuan Hern Lee - YouTube
Click to expand...

I'm willing to let some hyperbole slide, but ...
1500/24=62.5 days

Even if you honestly missed a zero (making the number wrong by 10x), you'd still be off by more than 2x, for the youngest of those kids.
 
#53
If you think those children got to where they are without:

1) A decent instrument to get started on
2) Some lessons to point them in the right direction, and
3) Lots and lots of practice

You are, in my humble opinion, delusional and grasping for excuses for your own work ethic.

There is no such thing as "natural talent". There is only practice, practice, and practice.

For what it's worth, I started at 7 years old in the school orchestra. I had a decent instrument, some formal lessons, and thousands of hours of practice later, people frequently tell me that I'm "talented". It's BS - if I'm so talented, I must be a fool for wasting thousands of hours on practice.

There is no such thing as "natural talent". There is only practice, practice, and more practice.
 
#54
I think it's both. Given that you started at 7, I'm guessing there's some family history of music performance. You give me Victor Wooten at age 5 and any other kid not named Victor Wooten at age 5, same instrument, same lessons, same practice time, and I guarantee you Victor Wooten is going to be much more advanced by age 10 than "not Victor Wooten". Not Victor Wooten should be able to develop some decent skills, but he's never going to be Victor Wooten. Just like, I could have spent hours and hours and hours in the gym (I did, actually) every day and I still would/did not end up being Michael Jordan (or Larry Bird, since I'm a big, tall white kid that graduated HS in 1988). I still developed a nice jump shot, some very good ball handling skills and good rebounding positioning/boxing out technique, but I had no chance at the NBA because I was still too short, too slow, and couldn't jump well enough. Music's similar in that it still requires a certain degree of natural ability to get good enough to utilize the skills taught in lessons/music class.
 
#55
I would agree that reaching a world class level requires a certain motivation and desire that not everyone has. But that motivation and desire is what makes thousands of hours of practice possible instead of insane. But motivation and desire are not talent.

And being tell helps for basketball, but that is not talent.

Again, ANY person who has #1, #2, and #3 will be "talented". But anybody who lacks #3 will never be "talented" - they will be, at best, a beginner.

It's really not hard for a child to be "talented". One of the great things about childhood is that you have a lot of free time to kill. Fill up that time with practice and in a few short years you, too, can have an amazing Youtube video.
 
#56
bradjonesbass said:
I think it's both. Given that you started at 7, I'm guessing there's some family history of music performance.
Click to expand...

While this is true, they had no influence on me. Anybody in my school was able to start at 7 years old in the elementary school orchestra. It's quite common - called the Suzuki method.

I've never even had a conversation about music with the other musicians in my extended family.
 
#57
I didn't say that they influenced you, I implied that musical talent runs in your family. Ever been around a kid who sings on key at age 3? Who picks up everything he can find to beat on anything else he can find and seems to do it with some sense of time and rhythm, who is humming guitar parts/bass parts/keyboard parts from memory after hearing a song once or twice? What about the kid who "loves" music, but couldn't sing on pitch for 2 bars if you offered him $1000 to do it? Music requires a certain degree of natural ability/innate ability/natural inclination to become good. It also requires a lot of hard work and dedication, but without the natural ability, all the hard work in the world won't amount to a hill of beans.
 
#59
bradjonesbass said:
I didn't say that they influenced you, I implied that musical talent runs in your family. Ever been around a kid who sings on key at age 3? Who picks up everything he can find to beat on anything else he can find and seems to do it with some sense of time and rhythm, who is humming guitar parts/bass parts/keyboard parts from memory after hearing a song once or twice? What about the kid who "loves" music, but couldn't sing on pitch for 2 bars if you offered him $1000 to do it? Music requires a certain degree of natural ability/innate ability/natural inclination to become good. It also requires a lot of hard work and dedication, but without the natural ability, all the hard work in the world won't amount to a hill of beans.
Click to expand...

Eh, I see what you're saying but respectfully disagree. You observation applies perfectly to me, but is terribly wrong for my siblings.
 
#60
There are some savants who literally picked up music within a few days. Others that can hear even the most complex piece one time and instantly recite it note for note as if they were a human tape recorder.

To me, these people demonstrate that natural talent can and does exist, but maybe too much of it is a bad thing as these people cannot otherwise function well on their own
 

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