Some Shade from Ron Carter

[Michael Milner]

I double on EB & DB. I agree that playing acoustic jazz on the DB does require that you play "more notes" (as you are arpeggiating the chord changes), but I also play in bluegrass groups on the DB, and in bluegrass you play a lot less notes, and are much more repetitive in your note selection. It really comes down to the genre of music and what is expected of the bassist in that genre. To be fair to all concerned, in the music that RC is referencing, the bassist is required to play a repetitive figure. It could be the producer, or the artist making the request, but the bassist is playing what he or she has been told to play as per the session. Just my two cents. RC is one of the last great jazz musicians who can state that he was part of that golden age of jazz that ended in the 1960's. He's probably the most recorded jazz bassist, including Ray Brown and Paul Chambers, although I could be mistaken.

 

[Lance Bunyon]

I double on EB & DB. I agree that playing acoustic jazz on the DB does require that you play "more notes" (as you are arpeggiating the chord changes), but I also play in bluegrass groups on the DB, and in bluegrass you play a lot less notes, and are much more repetitive in your note selection. It really comes down to the genre of music and what is expected of the bassist in that genre. To be fair to all concerned, in the music that RC is referencing, the bassist is required to play a repetitive figure. It could be the producer, or the artist making the request, but the bassist is playing what he or she has been told to play as per the session. Just my two cents. RC is one of the last great jazz musicians who can state that he was part of that golden age of jazz that ended in the 1960's. He's probably the most recorded jazz bassist, including Ray Brown and Paul Chambers, although I could be mistaken.

Probably one of the most recorded because he lived so long.
Many jazz guys died young.

 

[ElMon]

My thoughts on 'da FONK':

1) I play a bunch of musically-interesting, constantly-varying, Jamerson-inspired bass lines that are a conversation between myself and the melodic instruments:

• It impresses the heck out of the other musicians in the room
• I'll often get a 'you're a great bass player' comment
• Butts stay firmly rooted in their seats

2) I lay into one repetitive pattern, ala' just about any James Brown song:

• Something hypnotic and primal happens on the bandstand.
• Lead instruments play better
• Singers seem more confident about where the song sections are
• People dance their butts off, and seem trapped on the dance-floor.
• I tend to work more

My own rule: If the drummer is super-busy (most of the time now) I adopt approach number 2. If the drummer is an old-school, four-on-the-floor type of guy, I'll do more of approach number 1.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Agreed. But I don't think he's so much being condescending as honest (and yeah, he's decades late with his references). I'd love to sit down with him and talk jazz (well, he'd talk and I'd listen), and I'd simply leave my non-jazz tastes at home. I'm cool with that.

Sure, I could listen and learn a lot myself. Oral interviews are part of what I do for a living.

 

[Wasnex]

Rap is kind of a broad term that doesn't do the genre justice, IMO. I never had much love for the "hot butter/breakfast toast" stuff, but The Message had an impact on me. What's happening now to popular music is that it's all begun to draw so much from the hip-hop rhythms that we don't really have separate genres anymore. I stopped trying not to be Ron Carter years ago when I realized that every other 6-12 student thinks his pencil is a musical instrument. If his bigger message is that things have gone downhill... bruh, face it. He's right.



There's a difference --and whenever I say this, no matter how tactfully, someone always seems to take offense-- between art that can be recreated note-for-note by anyone with the required skill set, and art that asks for something entirely different from the musician and the listener. You're broadening your interests, but RC isn't missing anything. I like a lot of the stuff he doesn't, but I'm not on his level.



Sounds to me like RC is speaking from his experience as someone who's created in-the-moment lines on the stage or in the studio his whole career, and speaking about a specific genre of music where "riffs" and "grooves" dominate the song. We all know that the "riff/groove" music is usually played on EB and the jazz he's accustomed to playing and hearing is usually played on DB. He ought not have to qualify his statements simply because there's some crossover between the two instruments and genres.

Ron Carter's discography and the calibre of players he's shared the stage with put dozens (if not hundreds) of gold-record holding bassists to absolute shame. Must he show appreciation for every sound that's come out of a radio since he was a young man?



I had a Latin music gig at a wedding decades ago where we got a request for Low Rider. Probably played it for 10 minutes. I brought a slab to every gig after that experience.

I won't argue with this, but I still thinks RC misunderstands if he truly thinks it takes determination and discipline for a pop bassist to play a good repetitive pop bass line. A pop bass player will find it easy and enjoyable to play a good repetitive bass line...at least for awhile. IMHO it's a different mind set that he is not equipped to understand. I consider that an observation rather than a criticism.

From my perspective, commercial rap represented a huge deevolution of music, but the truth is, it just evolved music in a different direction that I did not understand or appreciate. I am more interested in harmony, rhythm, melody and textures and rarely know the lyrics to my favorite songs. Rap focuses largely on the part of musical art forms I am oblivious to, and the musical side of rap went in many directions I did not appreciate. In a way, me trying to understand and appreciate rap is a bit like RC trying to understand and appreciate repetitive pop bass lines. Totally understood that rap is very broad and includes lots of genres and sub genres, so hopefully you can forgive me for speaking in broad generalities.

I actually quite like a nice rap break down in the middle of a tune, but it's not something I can appreciate as a stand alone art form. I am just not wired that way. Likewise, I can listen to short clips off some metal forms, but it gets repetitive and tiresome if I listen for long. That doesn't mean I don't respect the technical demands or artistry, these genres are just not my cup of tea. Likewise RC would likely be an epic fail as a pop bassist regardless of how much determination and discipline he brought to the equation. IMHO good music comes from the heart so it's not a good strategy to force it.

 

[BargeOn]

. . .

I had a Latin music gig at a wedding decades ago where we got a request for Low Rider. Probably played it for 10 minutes. I brought a slab to every gig after that experience.

It dosen't have to be that way:

 

[40Hz]

Wow, I hope that the context of the conversation wasn't truly represented in that quote. If not, I'm disappointed that he would obviously not bother to actually listen to the music that he's passive-aggressively criticising by incorrectly assessing the method and means of those bass players and their lines...

IIRC many moons ago, when Stanley Clark's star was first on the rise, Ron Carter supposedly told him he was good. But he should start playing "the real bass" instead.

 

[Wasnex]

It dosen't have to be that way:

Not sure why Low Rider is a problem on string bass if you can play So What at a decent tempo.

 

[cheapimitation]

RC recently recorded with the stunning electric bassist Christian Galvez:

 

[RBrownBass]

It dosen't have to be that way:

I don't think the client would have appreciated a different version as much.

IIRC many moons ago, when Stanley Clark's star was first on the rise, Ron Carter supposedly told him he was good. But he should start playing "the real bass" instead.

Clarke was years into his DB studies at that time, AFAIK.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure RC has recorded on EB. He probably saw in the young Clarke someone who could help carry on the tradition, and was just stating his own wishes that he focus on the DB . But Stan had another plan, man... 70s jazz guys went a lot of weird and great places when they weren't playing jazz.

RC is one of those guys who's like a healthy-lifestyle evangelist. Okay, he may be annoying, but he's healthy. I can acknowledge that without putting down my lard-fried burger.

 

[BargeOn]

I don't think the client would have appreciated a different version as much.

Yeah, I hear you on that one.

 

[klyph]

Meh. I can think of a dozen jazz double bassists off the top of my head I would rather hear play OR talk than RC. Although he plays on some of my favorite recordings, his tone and approach don't do much for me.

That said, it is always worth remembering his original intent to become a classical musician and how he felt it was stymied by racism in that world. Although he obviously discovered and cultivated an aptitude for jazz improvisation, it was not his first choice and he has never tried to hide his bitterness about that. It is easy to imagine he and Miles being kindred spirits in this regard, as well as musically simpatico. Kind of funny, considering how much repetition and how little improvisation his musical life would involve had he achieved what he wanted as a young man.

I do admire his honesty.

I'm just glad "Kind of Blue" was recorded with a bassist who, although one of the best "walkers" who ever lived, bore no animus toward repetition or "funk". PC didn't like the bass guitar either, but he also didn't play it.

He is opinionated, but for some REAL fun, go read some Quincy Jones interviews. That guy is incredibly witty, cooler than any of us could hope to be, super knowledgeable, and TOTALLY NUTS.

 

[red_rhino]

Apparently Ron has never listened to Buster Williams on Herbie Hancock's Ostinato. 13 minute track where the bassline varies by little nuances at best.

Sometimes the right thing to do, is the right thing to do.

 

[matthewbrown]

I can't argue Funk isn't repetitive; it's just that the sort of Funk he is taking about is passé. A lot of younger bass guitarists in Gospel and others genres are playing in more Jamerson inspired approach where basslines constantly evolve. The great irony was that when Carter was a young man, Jamerson, a fellow Detroit native, was demonstrating every day on the radio just how free flowing basslines in Pop music could be if he had gotten off his high horse and really listened.

Steve Swallow does both -- play ostinatos with incredible discipline, and invent walking lines that swing like hell. So do a number of other EB players: Richard Bona, John Patitucci, . I think that Ron needs to update his playlist a bit.

 

[klyph]

He's probably the most recorded jazz bassist, including Ray Brown and Paul Chambers, although I could be mistaken.

Ray Brown, yes. Milt Hinton, certainly. RC and PC, no. Their reputation lies in quality, not quantity...

Even guys like George Duvivier and Joe Mondragon probably played on more major label master sessions than Ron. Being "opinionated" doesn't always guarantee employment...

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Meh. I can think of a dozen jazz double bassists off the top of my head I would rather hear play OR talk than RC. Although he plays on some of my favorite recordings, his tone and approach don't do much for me.

That said, it is always worth remembering his original intent to become a classical musician and how he felt it was stymied by racism in that world. Although he obviously discovered and cultivated an aptitude for jazz improvisation, it was not his first choice and he has never tried to hide his bitterness about that. It is easy to imagine he and Miles being kindred spirits in this regard, as well as musically simpatico. Kind of funny, considering how much repetition and how little improvisation his musical life would involve had he achieved what he wanted as a young man.

I do admire his honesty.

I'm just glad "Kind of Blue" was recorded with a bassist who, although one of the best "walkers" who ever lived, bore no animus toward repetition or "funk". PC didn't like the bass guitar either, but he also didn't play it.

He is opinionated, but for some REAL fun, go read some Quincy Jones interviews. That guy is incredibly witty, cooler than any of us could hope to be, super knowledgeable, and TOTALLY NUTS.

I don't mind that he doesn't like bass guitar so much. Everybody has their favorites. Just say it and move on with your life. At the end of the day, you need to like an instrument to truly have soul on it. That is why Brian Bromberg or Christian McBride sound great on both.

 

[JRA]

i'm in ontario, canada right now, in a vacation cottage which was 'reluctantly' fitted for communication with the real (?) world ( ) --- so the video in the OP won't load for me!

without hearing/seeing the OP's post in total: i would defend RC's POV if for no other reason = he did it and we're just talking about it.

all i got...for now!

 

[lermgalieu]

As far as shade goes that's pretty light shade. Agree with everyone that the EB v. DB distinction is highly suspect. Whatever - I enjoy RC (his playing).

 

[dbsfgyd1]

I can't argue Funk isn't repetitive; it's just that the sort of Funk he is taking about is passé. A lot of younger bass guitarists in Gospel and others genres are playing in more Jamerson inspired approach where basslines constantly evolve. The great irony was that when Carter was a young man, Jamerson, a fellow Detroit native, was demonstrating every day on the radio just how free flowing basslines in Pop music could be if he had gotten off his high horse and really listened.

I dunno. I get where Carter is coming from, and for the most part I do that, but only when the song allows for it.

 

[Michael Milner]

Ray Brown, yes. Milt Hinton, certainly. RC and PC, no. Their reputation lies in quality, not quantity...

Even guys like George Duvivier and Joe Mondragon probably played on more major label master sessions than Ron. Being "opinionated" doesn't always guarantee employment...

At the risk of further muddying of the waters, I will turn to my well thumbed copy of the "The Penguin Guide to Jazz on CD Third Edition" and their entry on Ron Carter. Their claim is that he has played on well over "500 albums, and still counting".