Sonic Maximizer, is it worth it?

[FretNoMore]

As he said, it's voodoo, or lasers.

 

[Inertialsky]

I've been wondering the same thing for a long time...

My only explanation is that they found a "sweet spot" in the ratio. So by no means is it perfect or optimized for a certain listening distance - but it does make it better.

 

[kleinenenten]

But if the speeds of different frequencies are a constant, let's say for example that 10khz travels at 5 feet a second and 50hz travels at 2 feet per second (obviously not true but simplifying for ease of explanation)...the listener 5 feet away will get the highs after 5 seconds and the lows after 12 1/2 seconds, but the listener 10 ft away will get the highs after 10 seconds and the lows after 25 seconds. So while the speeds are constant, the distance the listener is from the source is not.

So my question is how do it know?

It doesn't! It just makes them leave the cab simultaneously, I believe. I asked the same question about the BBE a while ago and found it to be a preset EQ "smiley" for the most part. Another bassist loved it, but he didn't really understand it. He liked what it did, so good for him. Me, I'd rather have a good, robust EQ. That way I can adjust more than just highs and lows. Not a fan of the BBEs, but I've never tried it. Seemed superfluous after my research. You can find my thread, someone posted an excellent youtube video showing exactly what the BBE does and how it works, all displayed on a computer frequency analysis program. Very informative for me. I'd link if I could, but I'm on my ipod.

 

[FretNoMore]

Sound On Sound writes as follows:

------------
When Aphex first invented the Aural Exciter, they can have had little idea that their work would inspire a whole genre of sonic enhancers, based on a wide range of operating principles. The patented Aphex process works by synthesizing additional high frequency harmonics related to the original signal, but BBE chose to travel a different route, basing their process on a combination of dynamic equalisation and phase manipulation. To augment the high frequency enhancement of the BBE process, the new Model 462 features a Lo Contour control which adds power to the bass end of the spectrum. Few details are provided to explain how this works, but reading between the lines, it appears to be another form of dynamic equalisation.

For those unfamiliar with dynamic equalisation, here's how it works: imagine an equaliser whose level of boost is related to the level of the signal being treated. When there's no signal present, there's no boost, and when the signal level is high, maximum boost is applied. Such an approach has many advantages; it can help emphasise transient sounds without adding any noise when the input signal is low, as would be the case with a conventional boost equaliser.

The phase manipulation side of the process is described as a linear phase shift across the whole audio spectrum corresponding to a delay of under 2ms. This is intended to prevent the high frequency detail from being smeared by the low frequency components of the sound and increases definition without boosting level.
------------

My ears don't hear anything that a light smiley face EQ and maybe a touch of compression wouldn't do, but I'm not super picky so I may wll be missing the point of the device.

 

[smeet]

It's an eq. The time delay stuff is hand-waving, nothing more. I had one for my home studio for years. If you turn down the high/low boost, you can't hear any real difference, so the eq is all you hear, even in a full mix.

Also, there is a YouTube video which demonstrates that the bypass degrades the signal quite a bit, so it gives the illusion that it improves your sound. Bypass it with your own cables to hear the real change the effect makes. That bit of dishonesty should turn you off all by itself.

 

[Zooberwerx]

Really? So, does the BBE box know the distance to the listener?

Mine came with a tape measure. At the start of each gig, I tell the audience to stand the $%&* still.

IIRC, the delays are well under 5 ms. I can create similar delays via my DriveRack but the question remains: will the end result sound the same in the front row as it does 30 rows back? Now, factor in rebound, reflection, and a host of other obstacles. I'm sure there's a point of diminishing return although I'm not well-versed enough to recognize the threshold. IME, the Sonic Max offers, at best, a compromise. From my bother's website:

1. 20% of the money will buy you 90% of the sound.
   
   
   • Corollary: Another 30% of the money will buy you another 5% of the sound.
     
   • Corollary: You can't buy the remaining 5% of the sound because nobody can agree about what it is.
     

 

[Inertialsky]

The pedal version has a true hardware bypass.. Can't remember the specs on the old rack unit. No dishonesty there. My ears also tell me it's a true bypass.

 

[boomertech]

Here is a thread with a BBE video link from last month. I had to edit my post in that thread because the TB conversion to the new format didn't convert quotation marks but instead inserted numbers and characters in their place making the reading difficult.

http://www.talkbass.com/threads/bbe-processor-what-is-really-happening-video-link.1062398/

There are no time based delays in the BBE Sonic Maximizer. The delay or time alignment that is featured in their literature is just phase rotation from the crossover circuit. The fact is that every time your signal is involved with a capacitor or inductor (coil) there will be some degree of phase rotation for all of the frequencies. The amount phase rotation is frequency dependent, meaning that the degree of rotation will be different for every frequency.

BTW, Every time you make an EQ adjustment on your bass or amp you are changing the phase relationship for groups of frequencies.

-Frank

 

[Bongolation]

The pedal version has a true hardware bypass.

The pedal version also has a pretty degraded function due to redesigning for 9VDC operation. Lots less headroom than the cheapest of the rack units, and I got that info personally, directly from BBE. Out of boredom, I bought one of the stomps when they were on sale for about $45 at GC a couple of years back. It had a pop like a noisy pot in one of the controls and I went through two or three others and they all had it. Gave up, got a refund.

Got a 362 for around $41.80 from MF on sale around then...

Link Removed

...figuring I would use it as a cheap media conversion treatment in the studio, though the VST is a better call. I think it wound up as a rack slot cover in one of my rigs somewhere, I dunno. [shrug]

 

[Zooberwerx]

The pedal version also has a pretty degraded function due to redesigning for 9VDC operation. Lots less headroom than the cheapest of the rack units, and I got that info personally, directly from BBE. Out of boredom, I bought one of the stomps when they were on sale for about $45 at GC a couple of years back. It had a pop like a noisy pot in one of the controls and I went through two or three others and they all had it. Gave up, got a refund.

Got a 362 for around $41.80 from MF on sale around then...

Link Removed

...figuring I would use it as a cheap media conversion treatment in the studio, though the VST is a better call. I think it wound up as a rack slot cover in one of my rigs somewhere, I dunno. [shrug]

Think I paid close to the same a few years back at the VB Guitar Center. Use it on the monitors as a quick 2-knob EQ. We're using some type of Mackie enclosures and, in this case, the 362 really helps.

Riis

 

[Kmonk]

I bought one several years ago and never noticed any difference in my sound. In my opinion, they are useless.

 

[M0ses]

Really? So, does the BBE box know the distance to the listener?

Sssshhhhh. Let them have their fun.

 

[pglaser01]

But if the speeds of different frequencies are a constant, let's say for example that 10khz travels at 5 feet a second and 50hz travels at 2 feet per second (obviously not true but simplifying for ease of explanation)...the listener 5 feet away will get the highs after 5 seconds and the lows after 12 1/2 seconds, but the listener 10 ft away will get the highs after 10 seconds and the lows after 25 seconds. So while the speeds are constant, the distance the listener is from the source is not.

So my question is how do it know?

In actuality...frequency plays such an insignificant role in speed of sound, the sound guy is incorrect...in air or other non-ideal gas systems, the only real factor affect speed is air temperature. It really seems either like a two band eq or its a presence boost

 

[Nev375]

It's just a simple EQ that boosts the high end. It just sounds a little nicer than a standard EQ because of the special electrolytic oil capacitors used.

If i remember right the oil comes from some kind of a snake.

 

[Andyman001]

Where you at? Ive got one i'm not using ATM. If your'e local you can try it out.

 

[monkeyfinger]

I went looking for a recent thread on this subject. It is worth a read if you are considering buying this snake oil.
http://www.talkbass.com/threads/should-i-try-a-bbe-sonic-maximizer.1039324/
This video clearly demonstrates that is it not doing anything a simple shelving eq could do, but it is designed to cut your lows in bypass mode. That way when you switch it in you think it is adding low end.

 

[boomertech]

The Sonic Maximizer is a dynamic high frequency boost or expander. The more highs you have, the more it boosts them. It can create up to 26 dB of high end boost (this is huge) so you have to be very careful not to clip your chain or to get brittle and harsh sounding. There is so much HF boost that they had to include a bass boost as well to even out the sound. Meh IMHO.

Exactly! a dynamic high frequency expander. The video above does not demonstrate the dynamic HF aspects of this processor, because he is only using steady state amplitude for the input signal. Here is a copy of my post from the thread I linked to above:

The BBE Sonic Maximizer uses a state-variable filter to divide the input signal into three bands (bass, mids and highs). It then remixes the bass signal (with its own level control) with the mids signal (no level control) and the highs "process" signal. The highs "process" signal has a level control along with a voltage controlled amplifier (VCA) that automatically adjusts the high levels.

BBE has JRC manufacturing most of the above circuitry on an IC, the NJM2153.

From the NJM2153 data sheet:
*************************************************
The NJM2153 is a sound enhancement audio processor for
professional audio equipments. It regenerates high definitive and
nearly real sound.

The internal VCA (voltage controlled amplifier) suppresses the
boost gain in high band to reduce noise when faint signals are
inputted.

The NJM2153 is suitable for mixer and effecter for musical
instruments, and high-end audio equipment requiring low distortion
and wide dynamic range.
**************************************************
The VCA on the high frequency band looks at the full-band input signal level and "turns-up" the high-band "process" signal level for stronger input signals and "turns-down" the level for weaker input signals. Acting more like a dynamic high frequency expander. If you look at the video again you will see the high frequencies flutter a bit as the signal generator sweeps the range. So there is a bit more going on than what he is demonstrating in his video. If he adjusted the generator levels you would have seen how the circuit was designed to operate.

I think that some people with a hissy signal chain may benefit from this processor, because it cuts HF levels for low amplitude signals. I had a guitar player in one of my bands that used it just for this purpose. It is a dynamic signal processor and does more than a simple EQ. If he demonstrated the dynamic functions of this processor it would have been an informative video... otherwise it is a misleading demonstration because he is entirely missing the scope of what this unit is designed to do.

-Frank

 

[boomertech]

But if the speeds of different frequencies are a constant, let's say for example that 10khz travels at 5 feet a second and 50hz travels at 2 feet per second (obviously not true but simplifying for ease of explanation)...the listener 5 feet away will get the highs after 5 seconds and the lows after 12 1/2 seconds, but the listener 10 ft away will get the highs after 10 seconds and the lows after 25 seconds. So while the speeds are constant, the distance the listener is from the source is not.

So my question is how do it know?

That's a great question and the answer is that it doesn't know. I will try to take your example of the delays in sound and put real numbers to them.

The speed of sound from Wiki:

Practical application to air
By far the most important factor influencing the speed of sound in air is temperature. The speed is proportional to the square root of the absolute temperature, giving an increase of about 0.6 m/s per degree Celsius. For this reason, the pitch of a musical wind instrument increases as its temperature increases.

The speed of sound is raised by humidity but decreased by carbon dioxide. The difference between 0% and 100% humidity is about 1.5 m/s at standard pressure and temperature, but the size of the humidity effect increases dramatically with temperature. The carbon dioxide content of air is not fixed, due to both carbon pollution and human breath (e.g., in the air blown through wind instruments).

The dependence on frequency and pressure are normally insignificant in practical applications. In dry air, the speed of sound increases by about 0.1 m/s as the frequency rises from 10 Hz to 100 Hz. For audible frequencies above 100 Hz it is relatively constant. Standard values of the speed of sound are quoted in the limit of low frequencies, where the wavelength is large compared to the mean free path.[12]

So there are no arguments about hearing 10Hz, I will use 20Hz instead.

At sea level on a dry day, the speed of sound in air is approx 340m/s. Also, the speeds of sound for frequencies above 100Hz are fairly constant. So according to the bolded information above, a 20Hz (10Hz) signal will be traveling at approx 340m/s and all frequencies above 100Hz are traveling at 340.1m/s. It is a speed delay of approx 0.9 microseconds per meter for a 20Hz (10Hz) signal. To have a one second delay of the 20Hz (10Hz) signal to the rest of the frequencies you would need to be 1,156,340 meters or 718.52 miles from the sound source. The total approx time for those frequencies to reach you at that distance would be 3,401 seconds or 56.7minutes.

If my memory is correct, the threshold for audible delay in humans at 500Hz is approx 3 milliseconds and longer for lower frequencies. So if we just use 3 milliseconds for the human delay threshold and the speed delta of 0.9 microseconds per meter from low to high frequencies speeds, you would need to be at least 3333 meters or 2 miles from the sound source to actually start to hear the delay for 20Hz.

I think my math is correct, but if anyone sees a problem please correct it.

-Frank

 

[JimmyM]

Wow, Frank...that's a heck of an explanation...thank you very much. So basically we're talking very slight delays that don't add up to anything for the typical listener as opposed to, say, backline sound vs. PA sound in a large room.

 

[scotch]

I think the consensus here nailed it. Want a boost-only 2 band eq? Get a "Sonic Maximizer". There are better eq's that do this of course, but as far as the phase correction nonsense,... it's nonsense!

Bfunk & boomertech pretty much spelled it all out.