You play in a band, not solo. Following your logic the drummer would contribute more to the sound guy because he needs more mics than the guitar player? You play as a group, you pay the sound guy as a group.
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Sound person
- Thread starter keith1r
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You play in a band, not solo. Following your logic the drummer would contribute more to the sound guy because he needs more mics than the guitar player? You play as a group, you pay the sound guy as a group.
Didn't get the unanimous support for their outrage, now did they.
**Adding to my previous posts.
I OWN and transport the PA/monitors/ lights/run the sound.
I'm responsible for making the vocals prominent, and clear.
The instruments mixed so they can be heard with separation.
The drums and bass pumping underneath driving the dance floor .
All members have a taste of the FOH in their monitors, biased to their preference that they may need to play their best and catch cues.
We all sound our best when we can hear the contributions of the other bandmates.
Since we adopted this approach, everyone has been able to cut back on the stage volume SIGNIFICANTLY.
The onstage volume was @ 100 DB
Now down to about 60, we can communicate comfortably without shouting, I no longer wear earplugs religiously. Out front we adjust the volume according to the room and body count.
We must be doing something right.
Club owners and staff comment on how Good we sound, and that the bar staff finds it easier to get the orders.
The dance floor is packed.
Whereas before with a hard hitting drummer, a guitarist that insisted on running a twin at earsplitting volume,
And my Mesa Rig pumping from onstage. The monitors were at peak volume before feedback... So loud that it messed with the FOH mix.
We are a better band now.
We have been rehearsing in my living room, at the stage volume with the exact equipent perfecting the process, honing that as part of our craft .
Everyone is much happier, the tones are better....
And FOH is easy to manage now
My bass has never sounded better!
Since my bass (and all instruments) are coming from speakers disbursed across the stage, I can be anywhere and hear everything clearly
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Way different than with a Cajon....did make vocals easier to mix.
Where ya at? I'm in Stanislaus County.Can I hire you to run sound at my next gig?
I travel 1-2 hours in any direction regularly for gigs ( heck the nearest home Depot is a 45 minute drive)
Now that's a novel idea. I play with a drummer who always has at least one mic on his kick-drum at rehearsals, and then when we play gigs, he likes to set up 8 mics on his kit AND he expects us to provide mic cables for all 8 of them. When I told him that normally everyone has to provide their own mic cables, he was very surprised about it! He thought he just needed to buy the mics and whoever had the PA should buy the cables to hook him up because it was the other person's PA, not his.
Wow. Just wow.Now that's a novel idea. I play with a drummer who always has at least one mic on his kick-drum at rehearsals, and then when we play gigs, he likes to set up 8 mics on his kit AND he expects us to provide mic cables for all 8 of them. When I told him that normally everyone has to provide their own mic cables, he was very surprised about it! He thought he just needed to buy the mics and whoever had the PA should buy the cables to hook him up because it was the other person's PA, not his.
One of the rare TalkBass threads where everyone agrees! Have we seen the last of the OP?
the one thing that makes me happy right now is that I dont play in a band with the OP
To a slight defense of the OP - they didn't say what type of music or sound they go for.
I am a fan of dirty bass, and while of course there are plenty of direct to board solutions, for myself nothing beats the sound of cranked power tubes, and that means volume. Even though I fairly sensibly bought a 50 instead of 300W monster (smaller, lighter, quieter, cheaper to re-tube), I still produce fair amount of volume on stage if that's the tone I want to achieve. Not obscenely loud, but on par with a sensible drummer.
And then I show up to the gig, the FOH person decides to stuff a cheap DI _in front_ of the amp input, tells me to turn the amp down to levels lower than in my apartment, just so they can completely obliterate my sound by running it effectively into subwoofer regions only. Of course, when instead of rebelling you follow with their decision, and ask for more of yourself in the monitor just so you can hear anything, that doesn't happen either - a cheap wedge cannot reproduce that kind of mix.
In such instances, I'd rather be out of PA.
I am a fan of dirty bass, and while of course there are plenty of direct to board solutions, for myself nothing beats the sound of cranked power tubes, and that means volume. Even though I fairly sensibly bought a 50 instead of 300W monster (smaller, lighter, quieter, cheaper to re-tube), I still produce fair amount of volume on stage if that's the tone I want to achieve. Not obscenely loud, but on par with a sensible drummer.
And then I show up to the gig, the FOH person decides to stuff a cheap DI _in front_ of the amp input, tells me to turn the amp down to levels lower than in my apartment, just so they can completely obliterate my sound by running it effectively into subwoofer regions only. Of course, when instead of rebelling you follow with their decision, and ask for more of yourself in the monitor just so you can hear anything, that doesn't happen either - a cheap wedge cannot reproduce that kind of mix.
In such instances, I'd rather be out of PA.
Good question.
Do you have vocals or other instruments?
Do you need to hear them?
What sort of music are you playing, and where?
Some years ago the band I was playing in, all seasoned players who have been around the block a time or two, played a gig in a large venue that we had been trying for some time to get into. One of those places with a built in crowd that likes to have a good time. We had a sound guy, a really good sound guy.
So we are playing the first set, all excited and happy and the sound guy walks up to the stage after the 3rd tune and says, " Just so you know, I have NONE of you in the mix. If that's ok with you I will be at the bar and you guys do what you want."
Woke us all up. We realized 2 things. We knew our sound guy was awesome and we had screwed up. Immediately everyone reached for their volume knobs feeling a little embarrassed.
The takeaway is if you hire a soundman to run sound then listen and do what he says. And if you are considering docking him for not stroking your ego then you are not thinking.
So we are playing the first set, all excited and happy and the sound guy walks up to the stage after the 3rd tune and says, " Just so you know, I have NONE of you in the mix. If that's ok with you I will be at the bar and you guys do what you want."
Woke us all up. We realized 2 things. We knew our sound guy was awesome and we had screwed up. Immediately everyone reached for their volume knobs feeling a little embarrassed.
The takeaway is if you hire a soundman to run sound then listen and do what he says. And if you are considering docking him for not stroking your ego then you are not thinking.
Smooth_bass88
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My stage volume is as loud as it needs to be for the drummer and I to hear me, and usually that isn't that loud. The rest is handled through the PA.
That being said, yes, I also ran into well-intentioned sound people that have the philosophy that bass is felt rather than heard... Meaning, although I have great tone and definition on stage, is is a low boomy mush out in the house. I will normally just leave it alone, but if I know the sound person I will politely mention it, and he/she is usually glad to tweak the EQ or whatever needs to happen.
That being said, yes, I also ran into well-intentioned sound people that have the philosophy that bass is felt rather than heard... Meaning, although I have great tone and definition on stage, is is a low boomy mush out in the house. I will normally just leave it alone, but if I know the sound person I will politely mention it, and he/she is usually glad to tweak the EQ or whatever needs to happen.
You're a band member, right? You're also the reason the sound guy CAN'T add you to the mix- "doesn't need to" shouldn't even enter the conversation because your stage level is too damn high. Why can't you find a monitor that lets you hear yourself at a decent level and let him do his job? The monitor would face you, not the FOH. Or, you could use in ear monitors, to prevent YOUR sound leaking into all of the mics, which screws up the monitor mix and the FOH sound. If you're not using monitors, think about starting.
You should try to mix a band, sometime. When people don't understand what the FOH actually needs, mixing is a royal PITA and the sound suffers greatly. Not only does it bleed into the mics, it also causes low frequency phase cancellations that the PA and sound guy can't fix.
I saw a band playing and the sound from ALL of the instruments, including the drums, went direct to the board. It was really weird to hear this when standing next to the stage- nothing but tapping from the drums, light plinking sounds from the guitars, the direct sound from the singers and clicking form the keyboard keys. However, that's the best way to get a good FOH mix because nothing else interferes with it. Everyone had in ear monitors.
Welp, seems the OP has his question pretty comprehensively and unanimously answered.
Hopefully he'll listen and learn.
Hopefully he'll listen and learn.
True story time.
I was working in a quintet that paid a soundman with an equal 6-way split. After the financial crash of 2008, our fees fell by 50%. Because I owned a PA, I was asked if I could do sound for a second cut. That way I was making twice as much as the other four members. That meant I was still taking home about the same amount of money although I had to do extra work.
Because he lived nearby, I drove the drummer to all of our gigs. I had a minivan that could carry his drums but he had a Corolla that couldn't carry my DB. A few months after I started bringing the PA, he pointed out that since he helped (a little) loading and unloading the PA he should get part of my cut. He conveniently overlooked about how I helped him loading and unloading his drums (sometimes doing it all). After I nixed his request, he started to ask me why I was taking any extra money, I should just provide the PA for free.
He used to stiff me on gas money, too. When I calculated the mileage I'd use 24MPG (because my van actually has a MPG meter) but he wanted to round that to 25. If gas was $2.87, he wanted to round down to $2.50 instead of up to $3. If his half was $7 he'd give me $5 and tell me had no singles (so I started carrying $20 in small bills with me, to make change). All he really cared about was getting more money in his pocket.
I was working in a quintet that paid a soundman with an equal 6-way split. After the financial crash of 2008, our fees fell by 50%. Because I owned a PA, I was asked if I could do sound for a second cut. That way I was making twice as much as the other four members. That meant I was still taking home about the same amount of money although I had to do extra work.
Because he lived nearby, I drove the drummer to all of our gigs. I had a minivan that could carry his drums but he had a Corolla that couldn't carry my DB. A few months after I started bringing the PA, he pointed out that since he helped (a little) loading and unloading the PA he should get part of my cut. He conveniently overlooked about how I helped him loading and unloading his drums (sometimes doing it all). After I nixed his request, he started to ask me why I was taking any extra money, I should just provide the PA for free.
He used to stiff me on gas money, too. When I calculated the mileage I'd use 24MPG (because my van actually has a MPG meter) but he wanted to round that to 25. If gas was $2.87, he wanted to round down to $2.50 instead of up to $3. If his half was $7 he'd give me $5 and tell me had no singles (so I started carrying $20 in small bills with me, to make change). All he really cared about was getting more money in his pocket.
You're too loud, it's called sound reinforcement for a reason.
That to me would be the 1st thing to try and remedy.
Then you can get your money's worth, and the band will sound better.
The sound person must be very good at negotiations.
IMHO support people shouldn't be paid more than the artists.
You might consider communications with FOH.
And perhaps get some advice from him on gig pay negotiations.
That to me would be the 1st thing to try and remedy.
Then you can get your money's worth, and the band will sound better.
The sound person must be very good at negotiations.
IMHO support people shouldn't be paid more than the artists.
You might consider communications with FOH.
And perhaps get some advice from him on gig pay negotiations.
I feel really sorry for the OP. Why assume the sound engineer is correct in his assessment of the volume? I've known many SE's that were happy with nearly inaudible bass in the mix.
I don't like the SE mafia around here that just always assume every SE anywhere is absolutely correct in their assessment of the relative volumes of instruments and of the mix.
I don't like the SE mafia around here that just always assume every SE anywhere is absolutely correct in their assessment of the relative volumes of instruments and of the mix.
At 50 watts, you can't be that loud, and choosing a mic, rather than DI in that situation would be a better solution.
If your stage volume is still too high, at 50 watts, you could use an attenuator.
Too loud for the room is unfortunately what many drummers create.
If you are in a typical bar, and you are "leveling with the drummer" then that's 2 instruments that are too loud for the venue. The guitar has to 'level up' now the stage volume is LOUD. So the vocal monitors have to be cranked.
So now the stage volume exceeds what is reasonable for the venue to function.
And the FOH mix is horrid
Remember, the bar sells booze to patrons. (Hint, selling booze is what the venue bases their income on)
The bar staff struggle to hear patrons it slows down the flow of the all important cash.
Take note, we all feel the burn, venues that have to fight bands over oppressive volume , stop hiring bands all together.
You won't be playing well paying: casino gigs, hotel lounge gigs, weddings, wineries, private parties, concerts in the park, etc with a situation like I described above.
My band is taking the next 3 weeks off.
That said we are booked into 2022 one gig per weekend or more, we play casinos, we do private events once a month on average.
By all means do what works for you.
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