Source Audio Sorcerers Society (S.A.S.S) Part 3

[LSMFT6]

Nice Lunar bass demo!

 

[Adamixoye]

Adamixoye, I watched your videos from about a week ago showing difficulty saving presets on Manta and OFD when using the Hub. I spent about 20 minutes at my desk today playing around with the Hub / Hub Manager, saving/loading scenes and storing/recalling presets on the Manta and OFD, and I couldn't duplicate the behavior you were seeing. So, quick question for you... is this still a problem, or have you resolved it? If it's still a problem, can you give me a more detailed description (ideally, step-by-step instructions) of how to get into the state where preset saving no longer works? That would be very helpful for debugging. Thanks!

Hi Brett, thanks for still trying to help me with this. As to whether or not it's not a problem, the short answer is the OFD problem did resurface, and I still haven't had much time to retry the Manta.

I'll list my best recollection of what happened with the OFD, and I will have to try the Manta again within the next day or two. However, I'm not sure how helpful this is going to be.

OFD "Turning on Automatically"
(1) I dialed in a new sound on my OFD
(2) I think my Hub was off
(3) I turned on the Hub
(4) I used my iPad to change the scene to the scene I wanted
(5) I dialed in the sound again
(6) I hit and held save on the Hub
(7) I am not sure that the lights did what I expected, but I don't remember the details
(8) The OFD started turning to this new sound setting randomly, as shown in the Vine video I posted---even when disengaged or turned to a new setting, it would flip back to this setting without any provocation
(9) It seemed to stop when I disconnected my Beat Buddy from the MIDI chain, and start again when I hooked it back up. Now, I know the simple solution here is to assume something weird is coming from the Beat Buddy, but things were hooked up this way for weeks before I had this issue. Plus the sound it keeps jumping to is a sound I tried to dial in just before this behavior started.
(10) A factory reset temporarily fixed the problem
(11) The problem resurfaced when I took my board elsewhere and I fired it up anew. A factory reset fixed the problem for the rest of the day. My next plan is to try to do a firmware update, or maybe even firmware recovery.

Again, as for the Manta, I need to test it out again. The problem is that I'm just not using the Manta that much in my regular playing right now (which has been more guitar).

 

[questionmaker]

Hey!
I'm wondering if I can use SA programmable EQ to align all my basses input volume.
You see, MM and P-bass are loud as hell(and not equally loud) and JB is much quieter.
So I thought that by programming each of them into SA EQ I will have equal volumes.
Am I right? Is it possible?

 

[scotch]

Hey!
I'm wondering if I can use SA programmable EQ to align all my basses input volume.
You see, MM and P-bass are loud as hell(and not equally loud) and JB is much quieter.
So I thought that by programming each of them into SA EQ I will have equal volumes.
Am I right? Is it possible?

Yes! Totally possIble. You don't even have to change each basses eq. The blue "Output" knob can be set to a different volume and saved on each of the 4 presets. Of course you can tweak the eq as well, if you want, for each bass. The Programmable EQ is perfect for this!

 

[questionmaker]

Yes! Totally possIble. You don't even have to change each basses eq. The blue "Output" knob can be set to a different volume and saved on each of the 4 presets. Of course you can tweak the eq as well, if you want, for each bass. The Programmable EQ is perfect for this!

Oh maaaan!
That is awesome!
I'm so excited about it!!
I almose bought two new boosters for this

 

[kurotenshi]

Oh maaaan!
That is awesome!
I'm so excited about it!!
I almose bought two new boosters for this

Since you only have two basses and the EQ has 4 presets you can also use the EQ as a booster for both basses.

 

[kevteop]

Quick question regarding MIDI. I just got my Hub set up for the first time tonight so excuse me if I'm missing something obvious:

I've got an Eventide H9 connected via the MIDI DIN plug. The H9 is set to transmit MIDI Clock, and I was hoping this would be used to sync the speed of the LFO on my Manta, but the tempo of the LFO remains stubbornly unchanged when I tap a new tempo on the H9.

Is there something I need to set up in the Hub Manager?

Edit: For what it's worth Control Input on the Manta is set to MIDI, but in the Hub Manager I can only select Off / Hot Hand / Expression - no MIDI.

 

[Adamixoye]

Quick question regarding MIDI. I just got my Hub set up for the first time tonight so excuse me if I'm missing something obvious:

I've got an Eventide H9 connected via the MIDI DIN plug. The H9 is set to transmit MIDI Clock, and I was hoping this would be used to sync the speed of the LFO on my Manta, but the tempo of the LFO remains stubbornly unchanged when I tap a new tempo on the H9.

Is there something I need to set up in the Hub Manager?

Super obvious things to check: is the Manta in tap tempo mode and do the MIDI channels match?

 

[kevteop]

MIDI Clock isn't sent on any particular channel it's global, so it's not that.

Good point about tap mode though - no the Manta wasn't in tap mode. I was sort of hoping I wouldn't have to be. I tried engaging tap mode to see if that fixed it but the results were very weird, the tempo became quite fluid, varying quite a lot almost like it was envelope-controlled (but it wasn't). It may be that the H9 doesn't output an especially stable clock but the variations were so big I'd be surprised if that's the problem. I know some people use one H9 to send clock to a second H9 without issues so it can't be that big a problem.

Do I really have to have the Manta in tap mode to send it MIDI clock? It seems silly. Would I have to have any other time-based SA effects in tap mode too, to get them all to sync? I'd rather have both the footswitches available for changing between presets than have to effectively disable one just to make use of incoming clock data.

I have one more really basic question (sorry I haven't had a lot of time to get familiar with the Hub yet): When I save a scene in the Hub Manager that's just one patch per pedal, right? But the SB2 pedals can have two patches ready to go with the two footswitches. So how do I set up a scene that will load patches into both sides of the Manta? Does that whole feature go out of the window when you start loading stuff via the Hub?

 

[Adamixoye]

My bad, re: MIDI clock and channels. You're right, I forgot that.

But yeah, it's my understanding that you have to have the Manta in tap tempo mode to accept MIDI clock. Not sure what the issue you're having is (obviously I've had plenty of my own).

Not sure about your other question.

 

[kevteop]

If that's really how this stuff works I'm very surprised. The Hub is supposed to make SB2 pedals more capable but does it really cripple one side of them in order to do it? I thought a scene would save two switchable effects on an SB2 pedal, given that they can have two effects ready to go.

And the tap mode requirement for receiving MIDI clock seems a very odd choice. Extended modes on pedals that require you to press-and-hold a switch to enter and exit are a consolation measure, a mea-culpa for building a pedal without enough switches on it, and usually there's some provision for doing it in a better way if you connect an external controller (like the tap tempo momentary jack on Boss delays, the aux switch inputs on Eventide kit, etc.). Requiring that same press-and-hold hacky method to be used even when you've connected an external controller seems bizarre.

Hopefully it's not necessary and we've just misunderstood the whole thing.

 

[adamaarts]

Pretty sure you'll have to have a preset in tap tempo mode in order to send it midi clock. This doesn't disable one side, since you can switch out of it relatively easily, plus if you have it in tap tempo mode and save a preset, then need another scene without tap tempo mode then you use the other side. I don't see how it is difficult to enable tap tempo if you want tap tempo. Use one side for tap tempo presets, the other for saving non tap tempo presets.

Regarding scenes and 2 presets. Yes saving a scene saves only 1 side of data for the scene. So you set your scene and save it, since you can't use 2 presets at the same time it's not saved that way either. This way you can have a standard preset that's always saved to your pedal, some like it this way, I understand why you'd want it differently. There was a write up a few pages (or more) back where you could force it to save both presets by adding a second pedal of the same type in hub manager. You could try to add 2 Mantas and save one for preset one and one for preset 2, not sure how the exact results would be but this is the only thing I've heard of regarding saving 2 presets.

Hope that helps.

 

[kevteop]

The tap tempo thing: So you have to bypass the effect, then long-press the footswitch, then tap your tempo, then bypass and long-press again to leave tap tempo mode before you can switch to the other effect you've got saved on the pedal. You think that's not a big deal?

I guess if you only use one effect during a song it's easy to get organised before a song starts, but if you need to change sounds during a song it gets complicated, you have to get out of tap mode to change sounds. If you're also singing a harmony it's not that straightforward to go 'OK so I bypass this, then press this for two seconds, then select the other sound'. I don't have time to be staring at my feet thinking 'Is this in tap tempo mode now?' etc.

So you say OK, they've given it an expansion socket, and MIDI support, if you need that sort of thing. That's sensible, not everybody is going to need it to be so flexible but at least it's possible if you're willing to add extra kit. That's the point where you disable the silly extended mode that your developers didn't like when they implemented it, because it only exists to shoehorn in all the features that management want to fit in a pedal that's compact enough to sell well. You don't still require that to be used when your end user has got MIDI data coming in to Dave the day. It's silly.

 

[kevteop]

The thing about setting up 2 Mantas I will try. Thanks!

 

[FretNoMore]

The tap tempo thing: So you have to bypass the effect, then long-press the footswitch, then tap your tempo, then bypass and long-press again to leave tap tempo mode before you can switch to the other effect you've got saved on the pedal. You think that's not a big deal?

I guess if you only use one effect during a song it's easy to get organised before a song starts, but if you need to change sounds during a song it gets complicated, you have to get out of tap mode to change sounds. If you're also singing a harmony it's not that straightforward to go 'OK so I bypass this, then press this for two seconds, then select the other sound'. I don't have time to be staring at my feet thinking 'Is this in tap tempo mode now?' etc.

So you say OK, they've given it an expansion socket, and MIDI support, if you need that sort of thing. That's sensible, not everybody is going to need it to be so flexible but at least it's possible if you're willing to add extra kit. That's the point where you disable the silly extended mode that your developers didn't like when they implemented it, because it only exists to shoehorn in all the features that management want to fit in a pedal that's compact enough to sell well. You don't still require that to be used when your end user has got MIDI data coming in to Dave the day. It's silly.

That's not how it works though. If I remember correctly I think if you're in tap tempo mode with one effect active you just tap the bypass switch to turn the first effect off and then tap the other switch to enable effect number two. No more difficult than switching between two individual stompbox effects, turn one off and the other on.

 

[Nic.]

If that's really how this stuff works I'm very surprised. The Hub is supposed to make SB2 pedals more capable but does it really cripple one side of them in order to do it? I thought a scene would save two switchable effects on an SB2 pedal, given that they can have two effects ready to go.

And the tap mode requirement for receiving MIDI clock seems a very odd choice. Extended modes on pedals that require you to press-and-hold a switch to enter and exit are a consolation measure, a mea-culpa for building a pedal without enough switches on it, and usually there's some provision for doing it in a better way if you connect an external controller (like the tap tempo momentary jack on Boss delays, the aux switch inputs on Eventide kit, etc.). Requiring that same press-and-hold hacky method to be used even when you've connected an external controller seems bizarre.

Hopefully it's not necessary and we've just misunderstood the whole thing.

Actually, previous iterations of the firmware didn't even save it to the presets. i.e. if you send a scene, then press the pedal footswitch to turn it off, then press to turn it on again, it'll go to the default presets saved in the pedal. I think the idea is that if you're MIDI controlling via scenes, then you can use purely MIDI to do all your changes. There's advantages and disadvantages to either method, I think.

Regarding MIDI clock, as some others have mentioned, the way we've been doing it is to permanently set one side as MIDI-clock-based and the other side as non-MIDI-clock-based. e.g. all non-MIDI effects set up on preset 1, all MIDI effects on preset 2. For example, say you're using a flanger that's MIDI clock based, and then you want to change to another flanger that's not MIDI-clock based. Put one on preset 1, the other on preset 2, and then either change using MIDI programme change (the more efficient way, but it requires more setup on your back end) or do two taps (turn off preset 2, turn on preset 1). At no point should you have to press and hold to turn on/off tap tempo.

Do you have any specific requirements that needs you to turn the MIDI clock off?

I have one more really basic question (sorry I haven't had a lot of time to get familiar with the Hub yet): When I save a scene in the Hub Manager that's just one patch per pedal, right? But the SB2 pedals can have two patches ready to go with the two footswitches. So how do I set up a scene that will load patches into both sides of the Manta? Does that whole feature go out of the window when you start loading stuff via the Hub?

Regarding scenes and 2 presets. Yes saving a scene saves only 1 side of data for the scene. So you set your scene and save it, since you can't use 2 presets at the same time it's not saved that way either. This way you can have a standard preset that's always saved to your pedal, some like it this way, I understand why you'd want it differently. There was a write up a few pages (or more) back where you could force it to save both presets by adding a second pedal of the same type in hub manager. You could try to add 2 Mantas and save one for preset one and one for preset 2, not sure how the exact results would be but this is the only thing I've heard of regarding saving 2 presets.

Just a clarification - I have not tried this with the new update and I'd be interested to see people's experiences with the new update. My original writeup is here - Source Audio Sorcerers Society (S.A.S.S) Part 3 | Page 99 | TalkBass.com

What I've done is, on the previous firmware, load two iterations of the same pedal for the same scene, but put one to preset 1 and the other to preset 2. The way the firmware -seemed- to work is that on the pedal, there are separate memory banks for presets saved into the pedal itself, and a separate 'buffer' that tells the OFD and MWBD what to morph between. Since you're just using a Manta, that won't affect you. But I believe the same principle should apply, do let me know if it works. I'll probably be updating next week, didn't want to take any risks before a competition this weekend (that and that I've been having midterm examinations at school).

Also, @adamaarts has a very good point about a 'standard preset'. I think it's pretty valuable to have a quick "back to default" option if anything screws up.

 

[adamaarts]

The tap tempo thing: So you have to bypass the effect, then long-press the footswitch, then tap your tempo, then bypass and long-press again to leave tap tempo mode before you can switch to the other effect you've got saved on the pedal. You think that's not a big deal?

I guess if you only use one effect during a song it's easy to get organised before a song starts, but if you need to change sounds during a song it gets complicated, you have to get out of tap mode to change sounds. If you're also singing a harmony it's not that straightforward to go 'OK so I bypass this, then press this for two seconds, then select the other sound'. I don't have time to be staring at my feet thinking 'Is this in tap tempo mode now?' etc.

So you say OK, they've given it an expansion socket, and MIDI support, if you need that sort of thing. That's sensible, not everybody is going to need it to be so flexible but at least it's possible if you're willing to add extra kit. That's the point where you disable the silly extended mode that your developers didn't like when they implemented it, because it only exists to shoehorn in all the features that management want to fit in a pedal that's compact enough to sell well. You don't still require that to be used when your end user has got MIDI data coming in to Dave the day. It's silly.

I just got done making a demo video of the Manta, but as I was setting up I noticed that my midi controller was sending continuous midi clock to the manta even in a preset that didn't have tap tempo engaged. It was engaged on a non hub scene preset (preset 1 on the pedal itself) but I was on a scene patch and on the right side (preset 2) when I noticed. I played around with it and it does appear to receive midi clock, but I am not positive whether or not it indeed does have to do with tap tempo being engaged or not. I'll go check and edit this post.

Edit:
So I checked, removing tap tempo does remove the ability to receive midi clock. BUT once tap tempo is enabled on a preset on the pedal itself then it will always receive midi clock on either preset when recalling a Scene from the Hub. I tested a few patches this way and I am confident in these answers.

As mentioned and explained better than I did, switching between presets with tap tempo engaged isn't that difficult, just an extra tap, no holding.

It can be a confusing pedal. It took me quite a while to get my head wrapped around all it did. I still feel overwhelmed at times considering how in depth it goes, but bow I at least know my way around to not get completely lost! I hope your journey ends up being a good one. We're here if you get stuck any more.

 

[Nic.]

So I checked, removing tap tempo does remove the ability to receive midi clock. BUT once tap tempo is enabled on a preset on the pedal itself then it will always receive midi clock on either preset when recalling a Scene from the Hub. I tested a few patches this way and I am confident in these answers.

Cool discovery! It actually sounds like a kind of loophole to me. I can't recall why the pedals can't receive MIDI clock unless tap tempo is activated, although it makes sense to have some way to control whether it follows MIDI clock or not.

We should have a repository of all the tricks or methods the users here have found that aren't explicitly in the manual or something.

 

[kevteop]

I can't recall why the pedals can't receive MIDI clock unless tap tempo is activated, although it makes sense to have some way to control whether it follows MIDI clock or not.

In the Hub Manager you can assign hot hand and expression control to params, why not have MIDI in that drop-down list and let the user assign it to speed. I appreciate that MIDI CC setup is going to be more complex and it won't work in that UI but that's how it should be happening I think.

 

[adamaarts]

Made a demo video of the Manta focusing only on its fuzz effects. Lengthy even with just that. I found more sounds I like after messing with this thing all night.