Source Audio Sorcerers Society (S.A.S.S) Part 3

[boing]

Thanks. I can hear what you're describing now. Next to compression, reverb is the hardest effect to "hear". There's way too much nuance and interaction to just twiddle knobs and see what happens. We'll talk again soon.

 

[rsmith601]

There are unfortunately quite a few things that are shown in Neuro that aren't explained anywhere.

I recently got a Ventris (last week) and I had the same questions. BTW, I am super-thrilled with this pedal!!!

I assumed that Pre-dly mod would give you another source of pitch mod, and feedback would just add the pre-delay as another delay/echo option-- but it sounds like that might not be so?

Also, sometimes we see Custom 1, 2, 3... and Soft Control are in the assigns list. But there's no mention of it. I thought it might refer to the parameters that are engine-specific, if so, they could put matching labels-- but perhaps call them "Engine 1, 2, 3... etc., or "special 1,..."

There are two seemingly contradictory descriptions of what TREBLE control does. It would be useful to know even roughly what frequency the BASS control (presumably a shelf?) works on. Pre-delay feedback high & low cut aren't mentioned. I suppose they're self-explanatory as long as the Pre-Delay is just a simple delay line.

I really think Source Audio should merge the User Manual and not have separate guides for the pedal and the pedal with Neuro. The manual could have a "what you get out-of-the-box" section, and then a more advanced Neuro section, but that way I don't have to open and search both manuals to find stuff.

And BTW, does anyone else get annoyed by the constant pop-up to subscribe when visiting the SA website?

Man, I sure sound grumpy, don't I? Get off my lawn!!!

@boing @Quatschmacher

I need to make some general comments about all of this.

1) I have encountered the request to signup for the email list perhaps more than anyone. It drives me crazy too! I will send a note to Ray/Jeff/Niko.
2) This is important. Bob created the Ventris as a collection of INDIVIDUAL highly configurable algorithms, each with a dizzying array of controls with crazy names. Most other flexible reverb pedals have ONE big program with lots of controls that the company tweaks and presents to users as "Hall" "Plate" etc. with a limited generalized set of controls for each. Because of the dual DSP, we can swap in and out these massive programs and all the controls. Because we have Neuro, we can present to you a huge array of controls that swap with the associated reverb engine. He faced the challenge to either SET AND HIDE the control value, or EXPOSE the control to the user. Because we are Source Audio and we want to give customers the most powerful tools that they can tweak and explore for the rest of their lives and not get bored, we tend to expose more than we should. I also spent a crazy about of time on the Gear Page and here listening to customer input on other controls and features. All of this made Ventris one of the most powerful and flexible pedals of any type ever created. Creating the user guide was a massive challenge. I think it is 70+ pages and ALL IN ONE LANGUAGE AT AS TIME.
These individual big programs make Ventris sounds hard to match with one big program.
All of this is to say that most of Ventris is easy to use and you don't need to worry about going deep. If you decide to go really deep, you might need to put on your more technical hat to deal with controls that might not be clearly documented. Bob Chidlaw may be the only who knows what some of them are, and he may not even be clear on that!
We have talked about making our next gen pedals operate in 2 modes. Simple mode and expert mode. This may help to create a clear dividing line between going deep....and going REALLY deep.
Hope this gives a sense of why things are they way they are. We probably expose too much complexity, and we cannot help ourselves!!!

 

[jam.majors]

@boing @Quatschmacher

I need to make some general comments about all of this.

1) I have encountered the request to signup for the email list perhaps more than anyone. It drives me crazy too! I will send a note to Ray/Jeff/Niko.
2) This is important. Bob created the Ventris as a collection of INDIVIDUAL highly configurable algorithms, each with a dizzying array of controls with crazy names. Most other flexible reverb pedals have ONE big program with lots of controls that the company tweaks and presents to users as "Hall" "Plate" etc. with a limited generalized set of controls for each. Because of the dual DSP, we can swap in and out these massive programs and all the controls. Because we have Neuro, we can present to you a huge array of controls that swap with the associated reverb engine. He faced the challenge to either SET AND HIDE the control value, or EXPOSE the control to the user. Because we are Source Audio and we want to give customers the most powerful tools that they can tweak and explore for the rest of their lives and not get bored, we tend to expose more than we should. I also spent a crazy about of time on the Gear Page and here listening to customer input on other controls and features. All of this made Ventris one of the most powerful and flexible pedals of any type ever created. Creating the user guide was a massive challenge. I think it is 70+ pages and ALL IN ONE LANGUAGE AT AS TIME.
These individual big programs make Ventris sounds hard to match with one big program.
All of this is to say that most of Ventris is easy to use and you don't need to worry about going deep. If you decide to go really deep, you might need to put on your more technical hat to deal with controls that might not be clearly documented. Bob Chidlaw may be the only who knows what some of them are, and he may not even be clear on that!
We have talked about making our next gen pedals operate in 2 modes. Simple mode and expert mode. This make help to create a clear dividing line between going deep....and going REALLY deep.
Hope this gives a sense of why things are they way they are. We probably expose too much complexity, and we cannot help ourselves!!!

I like the two levels of depth idea. I’m sure that if I stopped playing with some of the knobs I don’t quite understand, I’d get better results faster. (Though sometimes I get some really interesting results!)

 

[stubbsonic]

1) I have encountered the request to signup for the email list perhaps more than anyone. It drives me crazy too! I will send a note to Ray/Jeff/Niko.

Please, and thank you!

2) ...Because we are Source Audio and we want to give customers the most powerful tools that they can tweak and explore for the rest of their lives and not get bored, we tend to expose more than we should.

This is what makes SA pedals so special, and what many of us LOVE about these products. I own five SA pedals which gives me access to 100's of pedals (and that is not an exaggeration).

I also spent a crazy about of time on the Gear Page and here listening to customer input on other controls and features. All of this made Ventris one of the most powerful and flexible pedals of any type ever created.

Within my first 30 minutes of playing with my Ventris, I could tell this is a VERY special pedal. It's powerful, versatile, natural, and above all else, musical.

Creating the user guide was a massive challenge.
...
If you decide to go really deep, you might need to put on your more technical hat to deal with controls that might not be clearly documented. Bob Chidlaw may be the only who knows what some of them are, and he may not even be clear on that!

Fortunately, the pedals are robust-- and yes, we can discover them, even with some guess-work. But it would be helpful to have improved documentation. And having one manual per pedal (without separating the Neuro manual) would really help with searching & learning.

Listing all the parameters that are in a pedal's neuro editor, and cross-checking whether they are mentioned in the manual would be step one. Next, make sure the terminology between Neuro & the manual is consistent.

The signal flow diagrams are especially helpful, but it seems like there could be a few more to help save a 1000 words here & there.

Over the past few years, I've written a couple manuals-- which is challenging, but also satisfying work. I'm a teacher, so I kind of get obsessed with how to present something clearly-- while not being so technical as to lose the audience. SA has the added challenge of multiple pedals each with some updates that add features.

We have talked about making our next gen pedals operate in 2 modes. Simple mode and expert mode.

But isn't that already what SA one-series pedals do? You open the box, plug in the pedal, and you are in simple mode. You connect an audio/data or USB and open Neuro and you're in expert mode. I don't think you gain anything by hiding things. Just please don't dumb anything down. Keep giving us TOO MUCH control. We like it!!

Hope this gives a sense of why things are they way they are. We probably expose too much complexity, and we cannot help ourselves!!!

No complaints there. But sometimes answers are hard to find!

 

[boing]

If you decide to go really deep, you might need to put on your more technical hat to deal with controls that might not be clearly documented.

EXCLUSIVE REPORT!! Leaked screenshot of the upcoming Neuro 3.0 user interface!!:

 

[boing]

With respect to documentation, anyone who’s followed SA threads here knows why things are the way they are with these products. The innovation and product development has leap-frogged over itself numerous times. That’s a total plus for users, even it comes with pain points. I don’t think anyone is thinking “what the hell’s wrong with these guys???” We know what’s wrong with you. That’s why we buy your stuff.

For the record, I tried to settle for the Collider, but when I looked at the Neuro parameters for it and compared it to the Ventris and Nemesis, I knew I wouldn’t be satisfied without having all those extra gizmos.

 

[bassbrad]

@rsmith601 The thing I love most about my Source Audio pedals is the opportunity to dive deep into the effects and discover new sounds ~ really new sounds. As far as that depth goes when I first got the C4 my understanding of synthesis was pretty basic, despite having owned and used many synths since the 70s, but that sparked my curiosity to learn more about synthesis, as I have learned more and built several "modular systems" on VCV Rack 2 it has not only helped me get deeper sounds from the C4 but also to fully appreciate the brilliance of what Bob Chidlaw and SA designed and unleashed upon us with the deceptively looking pedal.

 

[rsmith601]

EXCLUSIVE REPORT!! Leaked screenshot of the upcoming Neuro 3.0 user interface!!:

View attachment 5284279

Brilliant!!
I guess what you all are saying is "dont go changing"?

 

[stubbsonic]

I guess what you all are saying is "dont go changing"?

Yes, SA! Keep doing what you do!

We all look forward to improvements with Neuro. I would love to see consolidated and improved manuals, but of course, that that will be a big project.

 

[jam.majors]

@rsmith601 The thing I love most about my Source Audio pedals is the opportunity to dive deep into the effects and discover new sounds ~ really new sounds. As far as that depth goes when I first got the C4 my understanding of synthesis was pretty basic, despite having owned and used many synths since the 70s, but that sparked my curiosity to learn more about synthesis, as I have learned more and built several "modular systems" on VCV Rack 2 it has not only helped me get deeper sounds from the C4 but also to fully appreciate the brilliance of what Bob Chidlaw and SA designed and unleashed upon us with the deceptively looking pedal.

I decided to learn a lot about synthesis, too, after I got my C4. I thought I was just getting a sweet pedal, not a life change!

 

[Billyears IV]

@rsmith601 The thing I love most about my Source Audio pedals is the opportunity to dive deep into the effects and discover new sounds ~ really new sounds. As far as that depth goes when I first got the C4 my understanding of synthesis was pretty basic, despite having owned and used many synths since the 70s, but that sparked my curiosity to learn more about synthesis, as I have learned more and built several "modular systems" on VCV Rack 2 it has not only helped me get deeper sounds from the C4 but also to fully appreciate the brilliance of what Bob Chidlaw and SA designed and unleashed upon us with the deceptively looking pedal.

This.
Likewise, for myself, I had to (and still ongoing) needed to suck up general knowledge of synth parameters, to get to grips with the C4 & UW. Which is a good general wider educational process. It's really like the journey of learning a new instrument. Need to keep nudging bits each day.

I just don't think it's feasible to produce a 'step by step' manual for this sort of multiple interactive involvement. Video demos are more handy, with some references for 'further reading'. Plenty of general beginners synth know how vids around.

 

[StayLow]

I’m much more a fan of the One Series Desktop Editor than the Neuro app.

Let’s say I have made internal changes to the pedal. Later, at a gig or rehearsal, if I want to change only one or some parameters and I don’t have access to the whole patch I’d burned to the pedal…

Can I connect via Nero / mobile and burn just those *without* changing everything else to default?

 

[stubbsonic]

I just don't think it's feasible to produce a 'step by step' manual for this sort of multiple interactive involvement. Video demos are more handy, with some references for 'further reading'. Plenty of general beginners synth know how vids around.

You're right that video tutorials are great ways to get both general info and step-by-step instructions for building sounds. SA manuals don't need to be step-by-step, but they should at least explain all the settings. Some companies make fantastic manuals, they aren't long, they aren't tedious, they just help the user to get the most out of the gear. SA can do a little better, IMHO.

 

[_Tay_]

@rsmith601 The thing I love most about my Source Audio pedals is the opportunity to dive deep into the effects and discover new sounds ~ really new sounds. As far as that depth goes when I first got the C4 my understanding of synthesis was pretty basic, despite having owned and used many synths since the 70s, but that sparked my curiosity to learn more about synthesis, as I have learned more and built several "modular systems" on VCV Rack 2 it has not only helped me get deeper sounds from the C4 but also to fully appreciate the brilliance of what Bob Chidlaw and SA designed and unleashed upon us with the deceptively looking pedal.

The C4 is just the coolest pedal. I love trying to push it's boundaries of what it can do. Limited by imagination with that pedal.

 

[rsmith601]

You're right that video tutorials are great ways to get both general info and step-by-step instructions for building sounds. SA manuals don't need to be step-by-step, but they should at least explain all the settings. Some companies make fantastic manuals, they aren't long, they aren't tedious, they just help the user to get the most out of the gear. SA can do a little better, IMHO.

We have actually decided that the best way to describe controls is text when hovering over the controls.
I am not sure where you are finding fantastic manuals. I have hundreds of them for all kinds of gear around the house, office and studio. They are universally terrible.

 

[boing]

We have actually decided that the best way to describe controls is text when hovering over the controls.

100%. I like the little info pane in Logic Pro that does this. It can be always there, but stays out of the way without being a pop-up that covers the part of the UI you’re mousing over.

 

[Gibs210]

I’m much more a fan of the One Series Desktop Editor than the Neuro app.

Let’s say I have made internal changes to the pedal. Later, at a gig or rehearsal, if I want to change only one or some parameters and I don’t have access to the whole patch I’d burned to the pedal…

Can I connect via Nero / mobile and burn just those *without* changing everything else to default?

3.0 is both mobile and desktop. Currently if you’re using the mobile app and just need to change one parameter, you can do that. Just change the parameter your editing, send all will change all the settings to match what’s on the editor.

 

[StayLow]

3.0 is both mobile and desktop. Currently if you’re using the mobile app and just need to change one parameter, you can do that. Just change the parameter your editing, send all will change all the settings to match what’s on the editor.

Thanks. Thing is, in this case I’d only want to change the one setting, not “all”. With “all” I’d be overwriting with the app defaults that are all straight in the middle.

Put it this way. Say someone buys one of these pedals with user-adjusted setting burnt to it. There’s no way with the Nuero editor, to preserve those settings and perhaps only change one or two settings if using the Neruo app. Correct?

That’s essentially my situation. I have a pedal I’d made careful changes to over time, the files for which I no longer have access to, and there’s apparently no way to upload those settings into Neuro and save them unless I get a desktop/laptop with USB which can read what’s on the pedal. If so, there’s also no way to make any changes without overwriting everything.

 

[Gibs210]

Thanks. Thing is, in this case I’d only want to change the one setting, not “all”. With “all” I’d be overwriting with the app defaults that are all straight in the middle.

Put it this way. Say someone buys one of these pedals with user-adjusted setting burnt to it. There’s no way with the Nuero editor, to preserve those settings and perhaps only change one or two settings if using the Neruo app. Correct?

That’s essentially my situation. I have a pedal I’d made careful changes to over time, the files for which I no longer have access to, and there’s apparently no way to upload those settings into Neuro and save them unless I get a desktop/laptop with USB which can read what’s on the pedal. If so, there’s also no way to make any changes without overwriting everything.

If you just load up the editing window, the only changes that get burnt to the pedal are any adjustments you make, it ignores any untouched controls In the app.

 

[StayLow]

If you just load up the editing window, the only changes that get burnt to the pedal are any adjustments you make, it ignores any untouched controls In the app.

Nice. Thanks.