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Speaker farting.

#85
So, a lot of people are recommending buying something new. I can certainly see why, Acoustic isn't exactly top of the line, but if your bandmates keep turning up,and are hogging the low-mids from you, it would be difficult to fit in sonically regardless of what gear you have - unless you can afford top-dollar for some exensive high-excusrion stuff, or you can build a fEARful and get a new high-power head (still pricey). I've seen some people driving the house to some mid-size bars with nothing but an acoustic MKI 410, and they sounded great doing it. If you're still having trouble just practicing with your bandmates with your 410, try asking them to turn down a bit. One thing I've learned over the years is that you really only need to be so loud, anything beyond that is unnecessary.
 
#86
pie_man_25 said:
So, a lot of people are recommending buying something new. I can certainly see why, Acoustic isn't exactly top of the line, but if your bandmates keep turning up,and are hogging the low-mids from you, it would be difficult to fit in sonically regardless of what gear you have - unless you can afford top-dollar for some exensive high-excusrion stuff, or you can build a fEARful and get a new high-power head (still pricey). I've seen some people driving the house to some mid-size bars with nothing but an acoustic MKI 410, and they sounded great doing it. If you're still having trouble just practicing with your bandmates with your 410, try asking them to turn down a bit. One thing I've learned over the years is that you really only need to be so loud, anything beyond that is unnecessary.
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Excellent post. I'll take it a step further: ".....anything beyond that is" ..... virtually always COUNTERPRODUCTIVE! In other words, the sound starts heading toward SUCK. Plus the guy writing your paycheck may get pretty annoyed (not the smartest thing to do)!
 
#87
I'll be really honest... A fair amount of the latter portion of this conversation has gone way over my head, hahaha. Now I have to go educate myself regarding hz and attenuators. It seems like the temporary solution is to adjust the EQ on my basses, and the long term is to upgrade my rig. I was having doubts about it being able to stand up to the combination of Mesa Dual Rec and Mesa Mark IV, so I really need to start saving money.
 
#88
BassShark said:
Never a problem for me. By keeping the master volume low you're limiting the power amp's output and by turning the gain up you're getting preamp distortion. With only 250 watts you can't afford to spare any power.
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Not true, at least not on a well designed bass amp.
 
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#92
BassShark said:
Any preamp turned up past 4 is going to start to clip. There's no way around it.
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Pretty definitive statement here, don't you think? Would you like to back up your comment (which is presented as an easily disproven fact)?

Let me make a definitive statement as somebody who has designed an awful lot of preamps that do not "clip when turned up past 4" in their day (and more on the way):

Your statement is not correct, not accurate and doeesn't even make any sense.

The point that a preamp clips is determined by the gain, by the input signal level and by the limits of supply voltage. The position of the knob is something that the designer (me in this case) chooses in conjunction with the 3 afore mentioned factors, plus the taper of the control. Each designer has the freedom to choose their own circuit topology and transfer function variables to achieve their design goals, including the point that a preamp might clip with a given input level.
 
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#94
agedhorse said:
Pretty definitive statement here, don't you think? Would you like to back up your comment (which is presented as an easily disproven fact)?

Let me make a definitive statement as somebody who has designed an awful lot of preamps that do not "clip when turned up past 4" in their day (and more on the way):

Your statement is not correct, not accurate and doeesn't even make any sense.

Yeah, I can back it up: with my ears! The point that a preamp clips is determined by the gain, by the input signal level and by the limits of supply voltage. The position of the knob is something that the designer (me in this case) chooses in conjunction with the 3 afore mentioned factors, plus the taper of the control. Each designer has the freedom to choose their own circuit topology and transfer function variables to achieve their design goals, including the point that a preamp might clip with a given input level.
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In general this is true. Sure, it's relative to the output level of the preamp, but unless one's designed with exceedingly low output, it's gonna clip at 1/2 or lower. I've played through many many bass amps over the last 40 years and can't recall any bass amp that was clean with the volume at half. Not sure why anyone would design a preamp that was clean when nearly wide open. That would be rather limiting, suppose you wanted to set the gain higher to get a bit of dirt?
 
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#95
BassShark said:
In general this is true. Sure, it's relative to the output level of the preamp, but unless one's designed with exceedingly low output, it's gonna clip at 1/2 or lower. I've played through many many bass amps over the last 40 years and can't recall any bass amp that was clean with the volume at half.
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Another thing, a 250 watt amp is barely adequate power for a live bass amp. One can't afford to sacrifice any power by turning down the master. Like I said, try it. If you don't like it, set any way that makes you happy.
 
#96
BassShark said:
In general this is true. Sure, it's relative to the output level of the preamp, but unless one's designed with exceedingly low output, it's gonna clip at 1/2 or lower. I've played through many many bass amps over the last 40 years and can't recall any bass amp that was clean with the volume at half. Not sure why anyone would design a preamp that was clean when nearly wide open. That would be rather limiting, suppose you wanted to set the gain higher to get a bit of dirt?
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I can think of a couple dozen that are clean with the volume at "1/2" with a "typical" P or J bass.

There's a whole lot of players that have no interest in a dirty bass tone, and I can also think of players who have a particular pedal for a specific overdrive tone or flavor.

I spent 30+ years behind a FOH console listening to thousands of bass players. I would say 75% were clean players, no overdrive tones, maybe 15% mild overdrive and less than 10% more heavily overdriven. This probably matches up pretty well with the type of amps they used, a player who is looking for an overdriven tone would naturally align themselves with an amp that more readily overdriven.

Also, turning down the master does not limit the power an amp produces. It just changes the sensitivity, or level required to reach rated output. You take an amp rated at 250 watts driven to the rated 250 watts, turn the master down 3dB (50%) and turn the gain up 3dB (50%) and the amp will deliver exactly the same rated 250 watts. It's just simple gain structure math.
 
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#97
agedhorse said:
I can think of a couple dozen that are clean with the volume at "1/2" with a "typical" P or J bass.

There's a whole lot of players that have no interest in a dirty bass tone, and I can also think of players who have a particular pedal for a specific overdrive tone or flavor.

I spent 30+ years behind a FOH console listening to thousands of bass players. I would say 75% were clean players, no overdrive tones, maybe 15% mild overdrive and less than 10% more heavily overdriven. This probably matches up pretty well with the type of amps they used, a player who is looking for an overdriven tone would naturally align themselves with an amp that more readily overdriven.

Also, turning down the master does not limit the power an amp produces. It just changes the sensitivity, or level required to reach rated output. You take an amp rated at 250 watts driven to the rated 250 watts, turn the master down 3dB (50%) and turn the gain up 3dB (50%) and the amp will deliver exactly the same rated 250 watts. It's just simple gain structure math.
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Well, I'm not one of them. I play vintage type Jazz Basses with stock pickups (around 7.5-8K ohms DC resistance) and any amp I've ever played through starts breaking up beyond about 4.

Obviously, most bass players play clean or with slight "grit". My point was, why design a preamp that's skewed so far to the low gain side of the spectrum? Even cleam players might use a bit of overdrive occasionally. You'd think that a manufacturer would be wise to produce an amp versatile enough to please a wide range of musicians rather than just one kind, even if it is the majority.

What's the reason for a master volume in a bass amp other than to get distortion at a lower level? An old school bass amp like a vintage SVT, Acoustic 360 or 370, or Sunn Coliseum Bass has no master volume. So, the power amp is fixed as if a master was full up, correct?
 
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#99
Then BassShark, you should find an amp that suits your particular needs rather than worrying about how other players don't understand their preferred amps, or are playing too clean for your taste. I think the entire market has spoken clearly about the preferences of the majority of players based on the amps being purchased and played.

This is the wonderful thing about being a bass player today, so many choices available.

Master volume controls are a convenient way to optimize gain structure and noise floor for some applications. Also, some amps have an additional gain stage that may be switched in for overdriven tones and in these cases a master volume and even a post gain volume control help balance gain structure, especially if the effects loop is being used.
 
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#100
BassShark said:
What's the reason for a master volume in a bass amp other than to get distortion at a lower level?
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Gain staging. People have different inputs. Not every bass has the same output, people use pedals. Some people switch some or all of those parts out between songs.

Having additional gain stages lets you balance the signal to your liking each place they are in the circuit. A pregain lets you balance your input signal, then you sculpt the tone with the eq. The master lets you level the input to the power section. That doesnt limit the power section mind you. A big spike of signal will send more signal to the power amp regardless of the master volumes position. That signal may or may not cause clipping the the previous gain stages, that depends on the headroom available.
 
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