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Evil Undead said:
Their both cool imo. Other than looks though their totally different animals. The wick sounds like a wick, nothing like a Spector, and also has all of the wick quirks. I would like a thumb one day as is does some crazy musical things that only a thumb does. But when I get cash saved up, I always gas for another Spector lol. #9 will be a 5 string (maybe a Rex) and will be comming soon
iceboxbass said:Good man Carlos!!!! Congrats on the BEST choice!!!
Lol the people who don't own a Spector usually have never played one, or played only 1 (and still dream about it) lol. Congrats on the new bass! Those are sweet!
Most excellent. As often as this subject comes up on TalkBass, this should be a sticky in it's own thread.OK... this is an oversimplification. I have talked with Stuart and Ned at length about this and have seen the original agreement signed by Wilfer in 1985.
Wilfer's first version of the Streamer was an near identical copy (even down to headstock shape) of the NS. He started making it BEFORE getting any approval or OK from Ned or Stuart.
When Stuart and Ned were made aware of WW's "Streamer" they went to Wilfer and threatened legal action. Remember that in 1985 Stuart had been in business 10 years, WW had been in business 3. Before Ned's NS-Body design there had never been a bass like this designed or made; it was a completely original concept. In 1985 the NS was as unique as the Aston Martin or Rolls Royce in the auto world. Everyone had heard of them but other than TV and movies probably never seen one in person.
They worked out a license agreement that would allow WW to continue to make the Streamer, but it would have to be marked "Licensed by Spector Guitars" and a very small % of Streamer sales would go to Ned and Stuart.
In 1984 something amazing had happened in the guitar world... for the first time since the electric guitar's creation the largest guitar company in the world wasn't Gibson or Fender... it was Kramer in Neptune, NJ. And when Kramer offered to purchase SPECTOR so they could expand into the high-end bass guitar market and Stuart and Alan (his original business partner) decided to sell, WW's position became that the original deal was signed with Stuart, Ned and Alan, not Stuart, Ned, Alan and Kramer.
And honestly one of the reasons Kramer failed was because they guys running it were acting like rock stars themselves... women, jet-setting, Ferraris and Lamborghinis... the whole nine. And they were lovers not fighters. As they saw it, they were the biggest guitar company on the planet and WW was this small custom shop in Germany... who cared? So they didn't pursue it, against Stuart and Ned's wishes. Shortly after SPECTOR sold to Kramer, Ned would sell Steinberger Sound to Gibson.
When Kramer failed it took Stuart 7 years of legal fighting to get the SPECTOR Trademarks back. By the time Stuart got the trademarks back 13 years had passed since the original agreement with WW was signed and SPECTOR had gone through two legal company changes: Spector Guitars to Kramer to Stuart Spector Design, LTD.
Another unrelated development was that there had been a huge legal battle fought in the US courts over copyright and design ownership between Fender and a bunch of other companies and the US Courts decided this: That the only design aspect of any guitar that can be protected under US Copyright Law is the shape of the headstock (which is why the Coda has the shape it does)... WW changed the shape of the Streamer's headstock and it was over.
The issue with WW has never been that they copied the NS-Body design. Everyone copies... the Coda is a vintage Fender copy for that matter. The WebCaster is a version of a vintage Strat... WW has copied designs from SPECTOR, Status, BC Rich, Gibson, Fodera... etc... Everyone gets ideas from one another.
There are a few original thinkers out there. My friend Mike Pedulla, Stuart and Ned, Vinny Fodera, Jans Ritter... but there are more "copycat" companies. There's NOTHING wrong with Lakland or Sadowsky... but what do they make? Really... their number 1 thing is doing classic Fender basses better than Fender.
And as an outside consultant who loves the companies he works for (or else I wouldn't do work for them) I can be fair and objective...
WW makes nice guitars. Some really nice guitars. And they build them out of some really nice materials. They sound really good. But they are as original as the Coda bass is. And there's nothing wrong with that. I'd be two-faced to sit here and say it's NOT OK for WW to make the Streamer while the Coda line that SPECTOR started two years ago is growing and selling faster than he can make them. And that's a fact.
But what I can say is that WW and HP Wilfer knows that regardless the "name" of the company, the designer was Ned Steinberger who took an original design from Stuart and modified it into something SPECIAL and one-of-a-kind... and he agreed to "do the right thing" and pay these guys for the right to copy their original work and then didn't.
Start making copies of artwork by Salvador Dali and then sell them and see how fast you get told to stop or else. Or perform someone else's song live before an audience while filming a movie or TV show and broadcast it without paying for the rights and see what happens.
This is the heart of the fall-out. It's not that he copied the bass... it's that he agreed that he would pay Ned and Stuart for their 10 years of hard work and then never did. And as if that wasn't enough, he thumbed his nose that them.
It's like a kid agreeing to buy your bicycle but then not paying you, riding off on it and then when you catch up to them they 're standing on the other side of an 8ft barbed-wire fence and taunting you about it.
I wish HP Wilfer had chosen to act differently. If he had we all could be going on about how cool BOTH manufacture's versions of SPECTOR's original bass are. But instead the Streamer is stained... and to those of us who have met and befriended Stuart and PJ, two of the most honest, nicest people you're likely to ever meet, that stain becomes an eyesore. And it becomes something that's upsetting.
Wilfer could make everything right by honoring his original agreement. But that's not who he is. And if SPECTOR was the only company he'd run afoul of I might be inclined to think it was a fluke or misunderstanding. But there are others that actually have just as much distain for his actions regarding THEIR designs that he's copied.
You guys should look up the WW lawsuits over the Buzzard design... there's a bunch of stuff out there that doesn't involve SPECTOR. As far as I can tell taking other people's work and making copies or even claiming the design was yours first is business as usual for those guys.
There's nothing against ANY musician that chooses to play WW's guitars. NOTHING in any way. My issue is with those people who don't understand the history thinking that it's the other way around and that SPECTOR copied WW (which that rumor was started overseas at a time when SPECTOR was SSD and wasn't really represented overseas)... little things like that irk those of us who understand and know what happened and it's like salt on a wound that doesn't ever completely heal.
I say that if you've done something you're not proud of... sorry... but it's yours and you should own it. But to try and muddy the water or twist things in a way that you pass blame or mislead people into thinking the situation was something different that it was... that's wrong. And it says a lot about the character (or lack thereof) when a person does that.
So for those out there that love their WW bass guitars... I say I'm really happy you've found something that makes you happy and makes you proud to represent the low-end as a bassist. But know the history of the company whose guitars you play and therefore vicariously represent and don't get defensive when you learn the truth.
The facts are the facts. And EVERY bit what what I've said above is well documented. Articles have been written about it and published... and there's that signed agreement I've seen... that many people have seen.
If you play a Streamer then you play a copy and perhaps you might do yourself a favor by trying the original.
The fact is that the Streamer and the NS, other than sharing a very similar body shape, couldn't be more different. From neck profiles to tonal profiles, they are different basses and have their prospective place in music. That's why I say try both before knocking either. I think if most people try both (I have) they'll see that at this point there are more differences than similarities and you'll either like one or the other, neither or both. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Like I said about my good friend Andy Irvine, who despite his change is still my good friend... love the bassist... love the bass (as an instrument)... who really cares about the manufacturer... If you don't like what someone plays look past it and be glad that you've found the right instrument for yourself.
I personally will always enjoy ragging on WW just because until such a time that HP Wilfer decides to apologize to Ned and Stuart (and notice in this subject I always put Ned first... he's the one that was really wronged by WW because WW has copied more than ONE of his designs... the very FIRST WW bass guitar was a Steinberger headless copy made of wood instead of graphite)... so until such time as WW makes things right, I feel it's the least I can do to show respect and support my friends.
I still say Spector should return the favor and make a WW "Thumb" shaped bass and call it the "Middle Finger".
It's just waiting to happen.
What I would like to see from Spector is something I talked to pj about years ago . Kramer Ferrington style acoustic/elec with a traditional headstock . 4,5,&6 string bass and guitar .
ALL YOU 5'ERS!!!!
Ebay has gone mental once again:
2009 Spector Limited Edition NS-5XL 5-String Bass Guitar Water-Cured Redwood | eBay
Spector USA NS-5XL Exotic Limited Spalted Maple | eBay
I really dont know why it happens alot latley,but hey,who am I to argue with good prices.
Any how,I didnt brag my Spector yet, first of all:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Greg Perel - WHITE NOISE!!!!!**** YEAH!!!!!
And now:
Ebay has gone mental once again:
2009 Spector Limited Edition NS-5XL 5-String Bass Guitar Water-Cured Redwood | eBay
Spector USA NS-5XL Exotic Limited Spalted Maple | eBay
I really dont know why it happens alot latley,but hey,who am I to argue with good prices.
Any how,I didnt brag my Spector yet, first of all:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Greg Perel - WHITE NOISE!!!!!**** YEAH!!!!!
And now:
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PhatBasstard said:Most excellent. As often as this subject comes up on TalkBass, this should be a sticky in it's own thread.
I still say Spector should return the favor and make a WW "Thumb" shaped bass and call it the "Middle Finger".
It's just waiting to happen.
Didn't someone make that joke a few threads ago? Doesn't really matter, it's still funny.
iceboxbass said:Good man Carlos!!!! Congrats on the BEST choice!!!
Thank you, thank you. I'll be posting pictures when my Shuttlemax 12/Epifani 212 come in.
Yeah... what's up with that? You've got an amazing NS-4.
Love it. And your profile shot on the Official site really shows it off.
+1!!! sounds like a great idea!!!PhatBasstard said:Most excellent. As often as this subject comes up on TalkBass, this should be a sticky in it's own thread.
I still say Spector should return the favor and make a WW "Thumb" shaped bass and call it the "Middle Finger".
It's just waiting to happen.
Have any pictures of what you're talking about?jarrod cunningham said:
GREG PEREL WN said:
Man! I love that water cured Burl redwood!!! Too late now!
:bawling:Greg! Your NS-4 is drop dead gorgeous!!!
I also like your choice in bass rigs too! I'm an Ampeger also. Love them!!!
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- Jun 16, 2005
- 3,584
- 31
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Spector, Aguilar, Darkglass
Yes. Me. The author.Didn't someone make that joke a few threads ago? Doesn't really matter, it's still funny.
Just reiterating the point. (The "I still say....." part was the clue
)Only half joking though. A "Thumb" shaped Spector would be cool.
PhatBasstard said:Yes. Me. The author.
Just reiterating the point. (The "I still say....." part was the clue
Only half joking though. A "Thumb" shaped Spector would be cool.
+ I'd buy one. That way I could satisfy my thumb GAS an my Spector GAS at the same time.
CarlosRoberto5 said:
I'm betting that Warwick offered him a better deal. I have owned a stage 1 and traded that up to buy chris' euro wimbish and to be honest I found the ss1 to be far too bright in tone that all maple body doesn't help in the low end, and the unfinished body gets to become a pain cause fingerprints and thumb marks are worked in easily. Seriously looking forward to this euro arriving. It's kinda annoying though that Andy a Spector endorsed artist who is aware of Stuarts issues with Warwick has jumped ship to the Germans anyway.
- Jun 16, 2005
- 3,584
- 31
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Spector, Aguilar, Darkglass
sifi76 said:
He told me WW was going to give his clinics more support and more so in Europe. His main points for bass is teaching not with a bass.
With him doing a clinic at BPL so soon.. I'm sure for what he wants to do with his talent.. This is his better route. He's a good friend and has always helped me with tips in playing styles I'm not familiar with.
I know this Spector vs WW thing can get a "personal" feeling.. But a lot of artist change instruments all the time... I personally love my Spector and equally the people that work there... But look at Doug W.? Even he left to ibanez for a stint.. Rex started using ESP for a tour.. Both came back to Spector..
After reading through the rest kinda realised It might have looked like I had been a bit hard on andy, which wasn't the intention just wondered why he would switch to the streamer.. I guess they are pretty much the same, but I think it's cause I like to believe people retain loyalty to a brand or company when it comes to instruments.. but after reading how spector doesn't endorse monetarily or through free product and andy being a hard working bass player along with everything else he does, I guess I can understand why you would change to another company esp if they were willing to help you along more.
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