Double Bass Speeding

[Roger Davis]

I've been playing jazz DB for more than half a century. I’ve played with some great musicians, even a few ‘names’ and my phone still rings regularly. So I consider myself a lucky guy and my wife lets me out regularly because she knows that I enjoy nothing better than playing.

We did our weekly gig last night with the seven piece somewhat depleted due to holidays. Lineup was featured tpt, clari/sax, gtr, bass, drums. The drummer was a dep and boy was he a speeder! The trumpet player who we brought in got quite arsey in the interval band room and told me to play on the back of the beat in an effort to slow him. After a lifetime listening to Sam Jones I tend to play on the front - it’s in my DNA. And when the drummer speeds, although I make a conscious effort to hold the tempo down I’m usually just a passenger. So I left the gig in a rather despondent frame of mind.

Now my question is this: could I have done anything to hold the tempo back, is there a technique I could have used to play on the back of the beat, or was there an inevitability about the increasing tempo?

PS to clarify, the audience wouldn’t have noticed the speeding at all; it was more a case of the tune on the edge of running away at any minute. You’ve probably experienced it before.

 

[TheDirtyLowDown]

Been there! Am there!

I try dragging my heels, as it were, but it often doesn’t work, and like you I’m a passenger on the runaway train.

The best thing I’ve found is to have an ongoing conversation with the drummer. I’ve also fired up LiveBPM on my phone during practice (and once during a gig) to show it happening.

Our drummer replies that often it’s soloists who are speeding up. I can feel that happen, but our drummer can sometimes run away with them instead of digging in and holding the tempo down.

No perfect solutions for us yet, but with some awareness and eye contact we’re improving.

Good luck! I hope it helps to know that you’re not alone!

 

[Matthijs]

Been there and I feel your pain

Some time ago a band leader suggested to me to keep my forward timing but play most notes as long as possible and dial in a more EB like sustain. He said that slows drummers down. It did actually work, but I’m not sure if I prefered that sound to a runaway train.

 

[Don Hergert]

The bands I'm in do pretty well with this, but since I jam a lot I get exposed to this pretty often.

My local jamming buddies, like me, are all getting older, and my observation is that the first things to go in many of us as we age are the ability to keep tempo and the ability to count measures. Because they are so important, these are things my wife and I are very consciously watching for, in ourselves, as the years move on.

I've experimented with sustain and volume, both which I can adjust acoustically or amped pretty freely and they help some speeders, but not all. For the old-jazz/swing and the roots stuff I jam with, I can and will also slap louder and more insistently which does get speeders' attention to the tempo pretty reliably.

Honestly the best speeder solution I've found is talking about it openly, discussing signals to watch for. Eye contact and body language are key.

Miscounting measures is another issue. Once it happens, either everyone has to move along with the mis-counter, or that person gets stranded. Either way it sounds bad, but I think the stranded person sounds worse. Eye contact and body language help communicate the need to shift if everyone else hasn't already caught it. The only prevention is to only play with people who can count, which is fine in a band situation but unrealistic in a jam.

 

[bassmanbrent]

I really don't think there's one answer to this question. It all depends so much on how well the drummer listens. If he/she is a good musician with experience, they will hear the band trying to hold them back and react accordingly. If they are not, there's often nothing you can do except try to have a diplomatic chat on the break, and that can be complicated too depending on how thick the drummer's skin is...

I'm not a bandleader, so I don't get to decide who shows up at the gig, but even in the worst situations I try to tell myself that it's only 3 hours of my life. I heard Victor Wooten say that he used to get bummed out about this kind of thing, but at a certain point he realized that he could recognize and accept that a drummer's time wasn't as good as his and go with it, knowing that he was making a choice to play 'with' the drummer and not get upset about it. Works for me!

Just my 2 cents, as always.

 

[Drucifer]

It all depends so much on how well the drummer listens.

This. If the drummer is listening and paying attention, you can slow them down by playing behind/lagging, but if they're oblivious there's nothing you can do. Talking and signaling works as well or better if they are paying attention, and works much better than playing behind the beat if they're not. Tell the guy "you're speeding up" and repeat it the next time, and tell him while he's doing it. If he's capable, he'll stop. If he's not capable, fire the drummer.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Did you get that where you wanted it?
I didn't know ________ was a Russian name.
You have a doctor's appointment or something?
You know we still have to play till midnight, right?
I had no idea I was playing with a timeless jazz legend.

 

[AGCurry]

Playing purposely behind the beat makes me sound bad as well as the drummer.

I start out with trying to compromise with his tempo, as if to say "Okay, we'll push the tempo, but not as much as you want.";
next, I'll go to pained facial expressions;
if those don't work, my stock question is "Where's the fire?"

 

[Don Kasper]

Playing purposely behind the beat makes me sound bad as well as the drummer.

Bingo.
Thank You.

 

[Don Kasper]

Now my question is this: could I have done anything to hold the tempo back, is there a technique I could have used to play on the back of the beat, or was there an inevitability about the increasing tempo?

Nope. This is a battle that you will always lose.

The trumpet player who we brought in got quite arsey in the interval band room and told me to play on the back of the beat in an effort to slow him.

I have two words for this trumpetist - the first I'm not able to type here, but the second one is "....OFF!". It is not the bassist's job to function as either an Anchor or a Hot Air Balloon in the Rhythm SECTION!
Sorry for your situation, which is now (hopefully) in the past.
Thanks.

 

[MLysh]

"Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown..."

 

[statsc]

I’ve often found that in a 4/4 jazz walking line the “2” can act as the tempo “governor” better than the downbeat. If you want to push the tempo or play on the frontside, play the 2nd. beat slightly early; if you want to hold back the tempo, delay it slightly. If the drummer is off in his own little world and relatively oblivious to what’s going on it probably won’t work; then just hold on and enjoy the ride (or not!).

 

[GutJazz]

I've always found annoying musicians complaining with the bass player about tempo issues when there's a drummer in the band! Sometimes I get the opposite effect: dragging tempo the drummer speed up, speeding up the drummer brakes, as in attempt to "correct" me . I agree the drummer have to ear you very well and loud, to walk togheter. But sometimes I'm forced to say: "don't run!", or, in reverse, pretending to snore

pardon my english

 

[sean_on_bass]

I have two words for this trumpetist - the first I'm not able to type here, but the second one is "....OFF!". It is not the bassist's job to function as either an Anchor or a Hot Air Balloon in the Rhythm SECTION!
Sorry for your situation, which is now (hopefully) in the past.
Thanks.

Used to have a 2nd trumpet in big band try to start clapping at the rhythm section as to where he thought the beat was...most annoying thing in the world. No sir, we tell YOU where the beat is, and you can either go along with it or simply leave.

 

[chilibass2]

I've been playing jazz DB for more than half a century. I’ve played with some great musicians, even a few ‘names’ and my phone still rings regularly. So I consider myself a lucky guy and my wife lets me out regularly because she knows that I enjoy nothing better than playing.

We did our weekly gig last night with the seven piece somewhat depleted due to holidays. Lineup was featured tpt, clari/sax, gtr, bass, drums. The drummer was a dep and boy was he a speeder! The trumpet player who we brought in got quite arsey in the interval band room and told me to play on the back of the beat in an effort to slow him. After a lifetime listening to Sam Jones I tend to play on the front - it’s in my DNA. And when the drummer speeds, although I make a conscious effort to hold the tempo down I’m usually just a passenger. So I left the gig in a rather despondent frame of mind.

Now my question is this: could I have done anything to hold the tempo back, is there a technique I could have used to play on the back of the beat, or was there an inevitability about the increasing tempo?

PS to clarify, the audience wouldn’t have noticed the speeding at all; it was more a case of the tune on the edge of running away at any minute. You’ve probably experienced it before.

There is really not that much that can be done (as many here have already noted).
When I run into this situation, I just thank my lucky stars that the drummer is rushing and not dragging. A drummer slowing down (which you also can do nothing to change) is the absolute worst thing you can encounter.

 

[damonsmith]

After a lifetime listening to Sam Jones I tend to play on the front - it’s in my DNA. And when the drummer speeds, although I make a conscious effort to hold the tempo down I’m usually just a passenger. So I left the gig in a rather despondent frame of mind.

While I think for many players this where their "art" lives, it can cause trouble. Being able to place the beat where it needs to be for the musicians at hand can keep the time from getting out of control.
Other times it can't be helped.

Funny story: I used to play a lot with a drummer who was a terrible rusher,, a very extreme case. An ex asked me to play her wedding and I thought it best to pass it on to another bassist.
That bassist hired the rushing drummer who then hooked up with a bridesmaid. My ex told it wasn't well. I said, "well, he must be terrible in bed!" and she was shocked and said, "How did you know?", I said, "He rushes.".

 

[CryingBass]

I bought a thing they should bring back. A Russian Dragon. Plug the drummer into one channel, and anything sane into the other, and it shows the differential - visually with LEDs. A great teller. Someone should do that again. Is it going to fix the root problem? Hopefully.

 

[damonsmith]

One of my reasons for playing free is that pretty early on I was able to get access to musicians who had better ideas on their instrument than I do. I pretty much stopped playing with musicians I feel I need to tell what to do.
I would talk to your bandmates and encourage them to opt out of using both that drummer and trumpet player. Use no drummer as per @Ed Fuqua's sig.
If the drummer is young, it might be worth giving them the talk, if not, just don't play with them, it isn't worth it!

 

[Steven Ayres]

One of my most frequent bandmates is a drummer I've been playing with off and on for over 20 years. He was in the first regular jazz combo I worked with here, when I was the junior member learning the jazz ropes.

Some time ago we were together in a regular electric blues/R&B unit that was doing some pretty good work, and in the middle of that success the drummer broke up with his wife of many years.

This guy plays just about everything well, but his heart is in the Elvin Jones orbit, and for him the blues gigs were playtime, with lots of gagging around and stage antics that attracted a lot of people to him and kept the band a little on edge. His great talent is that he can take anything he's feeling in the moment and express it through the drums. With the breakup he started using music as therapy, and his strength became a weakness. If he was feeling good he'd go manic and start embellishing and rushing; when he was down he'd drag and bash, sometimes painfully. It got to be a problem, and as usual no one in the band was willing to talk with him about it but me.

So we talked, and he'd get defensive and blame it on me, then he'd notice he was going sideways, and we'd talk again, rinse and repeat. He has really good ears, so I could nudge his time by moving the beat around slightly, and most times he was grateful. But eventually a combination of outside stress, a bad mood and a crap gig got to him. He chewed me out afterward, and shortly walked out of the band.

We didn't work together for a few years. Then another old bandmate of ours died, and we played a tribute party for him. We talked afterward about the bad times, and how he'd been in therapy since and realized how strung out he'd been. He'd run into problems with other gigs a well, and had less work as a result. He told me how much he appreciated me hanging in with him and trying to keep him on the rails. Now he's my regular guy again, and we know we can trust one another onstage.

So yeah, time problems can be a big deal for the rhythm section and trying to fix them carries risk and cost. For me the deciding factor is whether the player and the music are worth the effort.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Good discussion of a topic that will never be resolved. I'll add two things:

1) When I play with a drummer who rushes, I simplify. Busy is the enemy in a situation like that. Simple lines with simple time, and clarity above all. It doesn't fix it, but it mitigates it enough to get through the gig.

2) These days I never ask how much a gig pays. Instead, I ask, "Who's the drummer?" If it's a good drummer or no drummer and I like the person calling's playing, chances are I'll take the gig.