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Starting a Prog Rock Band

#281
40Hz said:
Oh, I've studied my share of complex and more intricate music if that's what you mean by "advanced music." (And I can even play it too!) I'll also put my knowledge of music theory, etc. up there with that of any of the next guy's. So "obviously" I'm not a completely unlearned and unlettered bumpus when it comes to music and musicmaking. And good thing considering I joined my first prog group back in the early '70s. I'd also like to think I just may have learned a thing or two since then. (Especially after spending a few years in an ensemble that was heavily into Harry Partch and his music.)

As far as "average" listeners go, I'm not as sanguine as you seen to be. But maybe that's because many people who like music aren't necessarily critical listeners like you seem to feel they must be in order to be worthy of the band that throws in a measure of 9/8 and double taps a solo while they're dancing to it. All good fun I'm sure. Not my cuppa tea, but so be it. Your band, so that's your call I suppose.

Same goes for the audience, many of whom just wanted to get out and enjoy themselves with their friends. Your band does something they don't appreciate enough times, they walk out on you. It's their evening - and it's on their dime. So it's their call too.

Afterwards they sometimes tell their friends. And shortly after that you stop getting booked.

Just sayin' ;)
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That is exactly my point, prog music is niche music. There is a reason Pink Floyd didn't find major success until they altered their sound to something more mainstream. King Crimson would be another perfect example (except they never went mainstream and never found mainstream success.) Imagine what people who thought they were going to a rock show thought coming out to those shows? More would be turned off than turned on. If you are not going to push the boundaries at least a little you best not call yourself a prog band in my books and you cannot dance to prog music so that is where the struggle lies, hence my point that you will have to work harder to get crowds.

On an aside, do you think we made the call to toss out odd signature bars on the fly? I'm pretty sure that would have crossed us into jam band territory (and been unbelievably complex and difficult to pull off). As has been previously mentioned, this material is all highly rehearsed. What happens is like any prog band, you toss in some prog-y breakdown into a radio friendly centre and people miss the beat. I'm sure many prog bands have seen this on stage. I remember reading an interview where Phil Anselmo was discussing a breakdown that adds an extra note and how that extra note always confuses the crowd, they're not even a prog band. For the record, my band had quite good success for a local act let alone a prog one so I think I know a thing or two about entertaining a crowd as well. Hell, we got radio airplay which is more than a lot of prog bands can say.
 
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#282
DiabolusInMusic said:
That is exactly my point, prog music is niche music. There is a reason Pink Floyd didn't find major success until they altered their sound to something more mainstream. King Crimson would be another perfect example (except they never went mainstream and never found mainstream success.) Imagine what people who thought they were going to a rock show thought coming out to those shows? More would be turned off than turned on. If you are not going to push the boundaries at least a little you best not call yourself a prog band in my books and you cannot dance to prog music so that is where the struggle lies, hence my point that you will have to work harder to get crowds.

On an aside, do you think we made the call to toss out odd signature bars on the fly? I'm pretty sure that would have crossed us into jam band territory (and been unbelievably complex and difficult to pull off). As has been previously mentioned, this material is all highly rehearsed. What happens is like any prog band, you toss in some prog-y breakdown into a radio friendly centre and people miss the beat. I'm sure many prog bands have seen this on stage. I remember reading an interview where Phil Anselmo was discussing a breakdown that adds an extra note and how that extra note always confuses the crowd, they're not even a prog band. For the record, my band had quite good success for a local act let alone a prog one so I think I know a thing or two about entertaining a crowd as well. Hell, we got radio airplay which is more than a lot of prog bands can say.
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I think we have very different ideas about what music itself, let alone prog rock, is about. But that's fine. If it works for wherever it is you're playing - and it draws - then it's no fault no foul. I can only go by the audiences where my bands were playing. And I'd hardly consider them to be unsophisticated or sufficiently lacking in intelligence and esthetics to fail to "get" virtually anything any band could possibly throw at them. It was a pretty intellectual area by anybody's standards.

Re: Floyd

I've followed them since their inception. And while it's true they became more listenable over time, I think it's more a result of their increasing musical maturity and sophistication, rather than any sort of sell out as you seem to be implying. Because the truth is that despite much of their early career cleverness, they produced an awful lot of self indulgent nonsense along with those moments of pure gold. Fine if you're into sharing your process and presenting that as your "art." But that's kind of a cop out as far as I'm concerned. And I'm far from alone in feeling that way.

As far as people's expectations about a rock concert being shocked by King Crimson, I don't know how far back you go…but when I think back to the period between roughly 1967 and 1975 when most of this stuff was originally happening, audiences were extremely receptive to radically different music and surprises. Far more than they are today. So I'm not sure how you're drawing some of the conclusions you are about that. If people weren't interested in that sort of thing, early Floyd and King Crimson would have never sold the number of albums, nor would their shows have sold the number of tickets they did back then.
 
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#283
40Hz said:
I think we have very different ideas about what music itself, let alone prog rock, is about. But that's fine. If it works for wherever it is you're playing - and it draws - then it's no fault no foul. I can only go by the audiences where my bands were playing. And I'd hardly consider them to be unsophisticated or sufficiently lacking in intelligence and esthetics to fail to "get" virtually anything any band could possibly throw at them. It was a pretty intellectual area by anybody's standards.

Re: Floyd

I've followed them since their inception. And while it's true they became more listenable over time, I think it's more a result of their increasing musical maturity and sophistication, rather than any sort of sell out as you seem to be implying. Because the truth is that despite much of their early career cleverness, they produced an awful lot of self indulgent nonsense along with those moments of pure gold. Fine if you're into sharing your process and presenting that as your "art." But that's kind of a cop out as far as I'm concerned. And I'm far from alone in feeling that way.

As far as people's expectations about a rock concert being shocked by King Crimson, I don't know how far back you go…but when I think back to the period between roughly 1967 and 1975 when most of this stuff was originally happening, audiences were extremely receptive to radically different music and surprises. Far more than they are today. So I'm not sure how you're drawing some of the conclusions you are about that. If people weren't interested in that sort of thing, early Floyd and King Crimson would have never sold the number of albums, nor would their shows have sold the number of tickets they did back then.
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I'm really digging this debate. :thumbsup:
 
#286
40Hz said:
I think we have very different ideas about what music itself, let alone prog rock, is about. But that's fine. If it works for wherever it is you're playing - and it draws - then it's no fault no foul. I can only go by the audiences where my bands were playing. And I'd hardly consider them to be unsophisticated or sufficiently lacking in intelligence and esthetics to fail to "get" virtually anything any band could possibly throw at them. It was a pretty intellectual area by anybody's standards.

Re: Floyd

I've followed them since their inception. And while it's true they became more listenable over time, I think it's more a result of their increasing musical maturity and sophistication, rather than any sort of sell out as you seem to be implying. Because the truth is that despite much of their early career cleverness, they produced an awful lot of self indulgent nonsense along with those moments of pure gold. Fine if you're into sharing your process and presenting that as your "art." But that's kind of a cop out as far as I'm concerned. And I'm far from alone in feeling that way.

As far as people's expectations about a rock concert being shocked by King Crimson, I don't know how far back you go…but when I think back to the period between roughly 1967 and 1975 when most of this stuff was originally happening, audiences were extremely receptive to radically different music and surprises. Far more than they are today. So I'm not sure how you're drawing some of the conclusions you are about that. If people weren't interested in that sort of thing, early Floyd and King Crimson would have never sold the number of albums, nor would their shows have sold the number of tickets they did back then.
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Just to be clear I never used the term "sell out" nor would I, I don't think they sold out by playing more mainstream music. Selling out implies that more basic music lacks artistic merit, I don't think this is the case. I think Pink Floyd got a blues guitarist at the helm as opposed to an avant-garde type leader. One cannot deny how their success grew from that, by playing it safe you will assuredly attract a wider audience. The golden era of rock allowed for niche markets to grow, that is why we saw prog gain such acceptance in the 70s. We will not see that again any time soon at this rate. Even then, bands like Pink Floyd grew a certain disdain toward their rock fans and the lack of appreciation for "their art" (that is what "The Wall" is about.) But that is aside from the point, my point is that great success traditionally eludes prog bands. You will not hear "overnight success" attached to a prog band but you will hear "cult following". The most successful prog band post-golden era, in my opinion, would arguably be Dream Theater, it took them decades to get where there at today and they can only do stadiums in a few countries. Audiences, especially those in North America, aren't tuned in to that kind of music these days. Sadly, I don't see any prog band achieving Yes, Pink Floyd, or Rush levels of success.

Obviously, if your not getting calls back, or paid for that matter, then it has nothing to do with the crowd not "getting it" but at the end of the day my advice to those entering the prog field would be don't set your crowd expectations high. I have made far more money and gained far bigger followings with far less effort by playing rock n' roll, prog is a passion project. At the end of the day, girls are what bring people to most shows and prog doesn't bring girls to shows.
 
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#287
^Hardly surprising. The "arrogant and alienated male genius" persona (that is a mainstay in the prog rock genre) is seldom seen as being either interesting or attractive by most women. Even the really smart ones.

Or more correctly, especially the really smart ones.

But that said, the last few times I've seen the Moodys and Tull, the women outnumbered the men about two to one. So it's not true that all prog bands are strictly boy's club. Back in their day, Renaissance had a big female presence at their shows. Maybe because Annie Haslam's brilliance provided a role model for the would be female progger?
 
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#290
bearfoot said:
Re: dancing, we have filled the dance floor on multiple occasions playing "Living in the Past" , which is 5/4. And personally, I can dance to "21st Century Schizoid Man", but as noted upthread, this may have something to do with my being from Schenectady.
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Yep. Same here. Saw it with Tull when they played Minstrel in the Gallery - and with cover bands pretty much anything by Kate Bush (esp. Babooshka, James and the Cold Gun, Wuthering Heights, etc.)
 
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#292
amusicalperson said:
I'm really getting tired of you people hating on capes! ;):laugh:
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310bib.jpg


I got one of these...uh, capes. I never use it. You want it? :smug:
 
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#297
At the beginning, the OP asked if anyone was or had gigged in a Prog-rock band.

I did. In 1980 I joined up with a keyboard player who had loads of original tunes and we started a hot little band that focused on that kind of music. Did really well for about three years, but everyone except the keyboardist had other long term plans, and we all drifted away from that band and into things like careers. The keyboard player is now a well respected studio player out in LA, if I recall correctly. None of the rest of us plays for a living.

When I read about the early history of Phish it sounded a whole lot like us (our music wasn't really in the style of Phish, but more about how they were living and learning the craft together); with the difference that those guys made the commitment to the music rather than other things, and we didn't.

Sometimes I wonder if we could have made it had we focused on playing music rather than getting high, chasing women, and getting into corporate careers.
 
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#298
DaDrew2112 said:
Personally I always try to think about the people I'm making music for. We're in the entertainment industry so our job is to entertain people. Prog misses the mark in my opinion because it's not about serving others what they want, it's more about look at the HOLY SH*T 6/18 time and this guy is playing MEGA TRIPLETS while simultaneously playing a whole tone scale with his nose on the double synth he's got set up.
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I'm guessing you've heard like 3 bands that are barely prog if this is what you actually think. Go to a Yes or Dream Theater show (even these days) and you will see THOUSANDS of people getting what they want and being entertained. The "mega triplets" are mostly incidental.

buldog5151bass said:
If you can find two godd guitarists, consider getting the Electo harmonix B9 or C9. You can get some fantastic organ, mellotron and other keyboard sounds from your guitar.

No need to find a keyboardist, no need to fight with a keyboardist's heavy left hand.
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This is horrible advice. Keys are irreplaceable. If you just absolutely cannot find a good player, then of course, add another guitar (or some other instrument). But in that case I would mainly stick to guitar sounds rather than trying to play hammond parts or whatever with a pedal. Those kinds of things can be good if you're in a band and need that sound on ONE song or if you're using it in an unusual way. But to have a guy basically dedicated to playing keyboard parts with keyboard sounds on guitar would just be awful.

PortlandBass77 said:
I think keyboard would be bad idea if you ever want gigs
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This makes absolutely no sense. Do you think venues ask bands if they have a keyboard player before booking and if they do they say no? I find that highly unlikely.

PortlandBass77 said:
But yes you should definitely do it! The world needs more prog bands! I enjoyed the experience and I will start another band when the right circumstances materialize.
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Indeed. But you definitely have to do it for the love of the music, which doesn't mean devaluing the band and accepting playing for free, but it does mean you can't put too many expectations on popularity or money.

CORBS said:
"TFK!"
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Those guys are so underrated. And then even a bunch of the people who know who they are talk sh... about them, completely unwarranted.

***

Anyway, I haven't gone through the whole thread yet, but wanted to comment before reading the rest.

I'm in a proggy fusiony jammy (currently) instrumental band. BTW, prog and fusion are not completely separate entities like some people seem to think. Fusion is essentially a subset of prog just like Canterbury, or Zeuhl, etc...

Anyway, we released our first album recently (). We self recorded and released it. We formed about 6 years ago, but the first 2 or 3 were not very productive. We would mostly just jam together, record it, then do the same thing the next week, and/or mess with a handful of covers. Maybe 4 years ago, actual composed songs started coming together. About 3 years ago we played our first actual gig (besides a couple house parties) and have played 1/2 a dozen total. Not to huge crowds or anything mostly (30-50 people total at most of them). But we get positive feedback from 1 or more people after every one.

A big part of gigging is networking. We've been actively networking with other bands in the area, and I actually started a FB group for prog musicians and fans in the area (has about 150 members after a year of existence). We "like" other bands' pages, post links to their stuff, etc... because we want to foster somewhat of a scene. We are more in the symphonic/old school vein than most of the other bands who are more either metal or alternative or avant garde kind of stuff for the most part, but the appeal of this kind of stuff is its diversity.

So with the networking and now having the album out, we are slowly building our fan base, 1 person at a time. We're about to go on a promotional blitz once we have our EPK all put together. We took a bunch of high quality pictures a few weeks ago, and we'll be sending the EPK plus either download codes or a CD out to various outlets we think might dig our stuff and mention it, etc...

And from a more fundamental point of view, I would say go look up some "local" prog bands and see what kind of quality and song writing is out there. It's easy to write songs in a bubble and say "oh these are great! We're the best!" but sometimes when you see what else is out there it can give you a lot more perspective, either on what's possible or what not to do. This area is actually not half bad, so there are bands that are amazing (super shreddy stuff with good song writing, etc...) and then stuff that is called prog but is way more straight forward relatively speaking (usually more space rock/psychedelic kind of stuff). But you can kind of listen to these groups as guide posts to figure out your own place in the scene.
 
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#299
Omega Monkey said:
I'm guessing you've heard like 3 bands that are barely prog if this is what you actually think. Go to a Yes or Dream Theater show (even these days) and you will see THOUSANDS of people getting what they want and being entertained. The "mega triplets" are mostly incidental.



This is horrible advice. Keys are irreplaceable. If you just absolutely cannot find a good player, then of course, add another guitar (or some other instrument). But in that case I would mainly stick to guitar sounds rather than trying to play hammond parts or whatever with a pedal. Those kinds of things can be good if you're in a band and need that sound on ONE song or if you're using it in an unusual way. But to have a guy basically dedicated to playing keyboard parts with keyboard sounds on guitar would just be awful.



This makes absolutely no sense. Do you think venues ask bands if they have a keyboard player before booking and if they do they say no? I find that highly unlikely.



Indeed. But you definitely have to do it for the love of the music, which doesn't mean devaluing the band and accepting playing for free, but it does mean you can't put too many expectations on popularity or money.



Those guys are so underrated. And then even a bunch of the people who know who they are talk sh... about them, completely unwarranted.

***

Anyway, I haven't gone through the whole thread yet, but wanted to comment before reading the rest.

I'm in a proggy fusiony jammy (currently) instrumental band. BTW, prog and fusion are not completely separate entities like some people seem to think. Fusion is essentially a subset of prog just like Canterbury, or Zeuhl, etc...

Anyway, we released our first album recently (). We self recorded and released it. We formed about 6 years ago, but the first 2 or 3 were not very productive. We would mostly just jam together, record it, then do the same thing the next week, and/or mess with a handful of covers. Maybe 4 years ago, actual composed songs started coming together. About 3 years ago we played our first actual gig (besides a couple house parties) and have played 1/2 a dozen total. Not to huge crowds or anything mostly (30-50 people total at most of them). But we get positive feedback from 1 or more people after every one.

A big part of gigging is networking. We've been actively networking with other bands in the area, and I actually started a FB group for prog musicians and fans in the area (has about 150 members after a year of existence). We "like" other bands' pages, post links to their stuff, etc... because we want to foster somewhat of a scene. We are more in the symphonic/old school vein than most of the other bands who are more either metal or alternative or avant garde kind of stuff for the most part, but the appeal of this kind of stuff is its diversity.

So with the networking and now having the album out, we are slowly building our fan base, 1 person at a time. We're about to go on a promotional blitz once we have our EPK all put together. We took a bunch of high quality pictures a few weeks ago, and we'll be sending the EPK plus either download codes or a CD out to various outlets we think might dig our stuff and mention it, etc...

And from a more fundamental point of view, I would say go look up some "local" prog bands and see what kind of quality and song writing is out there. It's easy to write songs in a bubble and say "oh these are great! We're the best!" but sometimes when you see what else is out there it can give you a lot more perspective, either on what's possible or what not to do. This area is actually not half bad, so there are bands that are amazing (super shreddy stuff with good song writing, etc...) and then stuff that is called prog but is way more straight forward relatively speaking (usually more space rock/psychedelic kind of stuff). But you can kind of listen to these groups as guide posts to figure out your own place in the scene.
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You misunderstood... keyboard is not popular anymore. When you think prog rock keyboard, you think 80's synth, and if you ask a bunch of random people if they would listen to a band that used 80s syth style keyboard, the VAST majority would say no.
 
#300
@Omega Monkey



You know what they say about opinions...

Obviously, finding a dedicated keyboardist would be choice #1. But finding a good keyboardist with good equipment is about the hardest thing to locate. Either as a trio, or a second guitarist, who could play SOME keys parts, would be an option. Pedals like this would expand the tonal palette far more than with guitar pedals. I know several people who gotten these pedals, and they love them. YMMV
 

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