stay or go? what would you do?

[DanGroove]

...and Did I mention that he's the BUSIEST acoustic guitar strummer in the world?

Impossible! I’m certain that busiest in the world was playing in my old band on a 12 string.....

 

[Chango Malo]

see, I knew I'd get honest feedback in complete sentences from the bass players.
some stuff in response to above posts:

We've had a "come to neutral" band re=levelling a few months ago due to attitudes and behaviours harshing the mellow of guitar dude. Attitudes where checked and big shifts were made and are still being made. Bass dude actually has been working on stuff with a therapist (not that he's seeing a therapist due to the band, he's working on some job and life stressors and the band is part of life). I myself thought that was a stellar idea and have been talking to someone about 'developing' better people skills. Other band members (fiddle chick and drummer chick) have both been very complimentary and appreciative of the changes made so far.

The performance quality is indeed an issue. Guitar dude has stated he just wants to "start the tunes and have everybody find their groove and join in". Won't put in the time to develop a tune; if he can get through it without trainwrecking personally, it's good enough no matter what else is going on.
we record every show off the board; he can't seem to hear the slop or it doesn't bother him. Either answer is a red flag in my mind.

Dude's not really receptive to feedback; he gives the impression that he's waiting for the speaker to finish talking and then just says his opinion regardless of what was said. He doesn't give the impression he understood what the other was saying at all, or he denies what was said as being a legitimate though or opinion. Pretty typical passive aggressive reactions or so I'm informed by the lady with the whole buncha pieces of fancy paper on her wall.

I'd say there is some insecurity on his end. He led us to believe that he could read and had a deep theory knowledge. He can't and doesn't. I found out that when I write parts and lines (mostly harmony lines for Scots/Irish trad tunes for acoustic guitar and tenor banjo) he has to convert them to tab. Which is no big deal, but I could have been giving them to him converted to tab in the first place. Ain't score writing software cool? FWIW, not knowing a ton of theory isn't a problem either, just BS'ing your way through it is a bit of a flag.

Guitar dude is not uncomfortable on stage. Quite the contrary in fact. He's one of those guys that play music so he can get on stage rather than get on stage to play music if you can get the distinction. Which really isn't necessarily a bad thing if a guy's gonna sing most of the leads. Still, if he's on stage, it's good enough for him.

I'm not going to poll the rest of the band behind guitar dude's back. Anything I say one on one I try to keep positive. When I open my mouth about it, it'll be in front of the whole band. And I'll stay away from accusatory language and keep it polite.

I'd be totally willing to work with the dude on reading standard notation, theory, rhythm guitar technique, songwriting, or anything else I could contribute. I've offered many times, just have never been taken up on it. Mostly the theory and songwriting stuff, but the rest is on the table. Dude just doesn't seem interested in putting the time into it. This is perhaps the most frustration thing about the whole deal (well the passive aggressive stuff is for the birds too), the dude has the talent, he just won't put the effort in. Or see that there's room to improve (and that he should).

When the band formed a few years ago, guitar dude stated "I really want to play more guitar in a band". I took that as he wanted to get back to playing more guitar, rather than he'd never played much guitar at all in a band situation which after talking to past folks he's played with is the case. In fact, this is only the second working band he's been in. Which isn't a crime unless you don't want to get any feedback from folks who have been gigging since the '80's.

I'm not going to give the "him or me" ultimatum. If progress isn't made, I will jet. There are bands where that would be appropriate, but this isn't one of them.

FWIW, everyone in the band are really nice people. Even guitar dude. Even if he's a bit shallow (and that really surprised me when I realized it) he's one of the nicest guys ever to walk the dirt. I feel like I'm kicking a puppy when I think poorly about his musicianship. I guess I'm getting tired of the puppy peeing on the carpet...


what keeps me in the band right now? I honestly like everyone in the band. Fiddle chick is phenomenal. Drummer chick is super fun and is a huge plus on stage. Bass dude is one of my best friends ever. I actually like guitar dude as a person overall. And I get payed. Well better than average in this town and I don't have to play casinos way out of town to get it. And the potential of the band is huge, even if guitar dude is stagnant personally. TBH, there are flashes of greatness every single show. There are also *** moments Every. Single. Show.

thanks for reading these long ass posts.

 

[Chango Malo]

i love this thread....ya know why? I can't tell you how many arguments I got into with guitar players - many of which who believe that the entire musical universe revolves around the guitar -- about this exact subject in the past thirty years....People dont dance to guitar solos

No offense to anyone here but,when I gig, I dont play for musicians: I could care less what folded-arms guy (usually accompanied by talk-behind-his-hand guy) in the back of the room thinks of my band....Why is this a pet peeve to me? Many guitar players are not only prone to do this,but will make song choices based on it

Impossible! I’m certain that busiest in the world was playing in my old band on a 12 string.....

You have my uttermost sympathies, dude.

good grief.

 

[RustyAxe]

dude, you know if you're posting a 'should i stay or should i go' thread there's only one answer. Either tell the dude he's pooping in the band punchbowl or pull the ripcord.

Talking to yourself? This might be more serious than it first appears!

 

[micguy]

Musicians should hone their chops so that, when the music calls for it, they can play a lot of notes cleanly. Good musicians also know when to play less - often far less, so the music can breathe, and whatever part should be sticking out isn't buried under a sea of self-gratificational note wankering.

A band where someone plays incessantly can, if they're smart, choose an opening number where that works - high energy, all that. But the second number where the guy is playing like that will get repetitive. If I were an audience member, I would likely tolerate that, h=oping for a change. But if the 3rd tune started out the same way, I'd leave.

Do you want your audiences to leave after 2 or 3 songs?

 

[lancimouspitt]

Sounds like the band as a collective should get rid of cowboy.....
You had nothing negative to say about anyone but him.... Why let one person ruin a good thing?
See how the rest of the band feels or thinks about the situation.

 

[TerribleTim68]

Mostly, since I'm in Tacoma, I'm curious what band this is.

 

[LBS-bass]

There are some singers for whom an instrument is more of a prop than an actual musical device. Sounds like this guy is in that camp. I'm in a "fun" band with a guy like this, who is also a super nice guy and books great shows. You have three real choices:

1) Mix the guitar down to a point at which it's not conflicting too much with everything else that's going on. (Won't work, he wants to hear it and doesn't care that it sounds bad).

2) Tell the guy that things would just sound better if he concentrated more on being a vocalist and didn't bother with the guitar. (Won't work, he wants his prop and probably thinks he sounds fine.)

3) Decide if you can live with it or not, then act according to that decision.

In our case, the guy knows he's not really a guitar player but he's taking lessons and trying to get better, so he still wants to hear it. That's fair, because it's a band that's for fun and, in some cases, for development. We all have much more serious "real" bands and this is a brewery project with lots of beer songs and simple changes.

So, he can develop and learn and challenge himself all he wants in this band, and I'm ok with that. But if he were not a super nice guy with a heart of gold and a great singing voice, I would not be ok with that. I like the hang and I like having gigs, so I stay.

 

[Oddly]

Honestly it seems the big problem here is the guitarist.
Just get rid of him.

 

[Nevada Pete]

A better question is, "Why do you put up with this?"

As usual, lfmn16 sums it up succinctly. By the way, why do you put up with this?

Does this band play out much? Who books the gigs? How does the audience respond to this guitar strumming lead singer? Is he a "star quality" front man? Is this band booked up solid? Those would be my major concerns. Oh yeah, and why do you put up with this, anyway?

 

[Tad]

Honestly it seems the big problem here is the guitarist.
Just get rid of him.

That’s not gonna happen.

Everyone in the band has gone out of their way to accommodate Mr. Pita on schmoozer guitar and the two chicks in the band think that’s a great idea. They are especially pleased that the other two dudes in the band have gone to see someone to work on their issues.

Schmoozer guitarist and the two chicks are the band. It’s the other two problematic dudes who are being tolerated.

 

[Nevada Pete]

see, I knew I'd get honest feedback in complete sentences from the bass players.
some stuff in response to above posts:

We've had a "come to neutral" band re=levelling a few months ago due to attitudes and behaviours harshing the mellow of guitar dude. Attitudes where checked and big shifts were made and are still being made. Bass dude actually has been working on stuff with a therapist (not that he's seeing a therapist due to the band, he's working on some job and life stressors and the band is part of life). I myself thought that was a stellar idea and have been talking to someone about 'developing' better people skills. Other band members (fiddle chick and drummer chick) have both been very complimentary and appreciative of the changes made so far.

The performance quality is indeed an issue. Guitar dude has stated he just wants to "start the tunes and have everybody find their groove and join in". Won't put in the time to develop a tune; if he can get through it without trainwrecking personally, it's good enough no matter what else is going on.
we record every show off the board; he can't seem to hear the slop or it doesn't bother him. Either answer is a red flag in my mind.

Dude's not really receptive to feedback; he gives the impression that he's waiting for the speaker to finish talking and then just says his opinion regardless of what was said. He doesn't give the impression he understood what the other was saying at all, or he denies what was said as being a legitimate though or opinion. Pretty typical passive aggressive reactions or so I'm informed by the lady with the whole buncha pieces of fancy paper on her wall.

I'd say there is some insecurity on his end. He led us to believe that he could read and had a deep theory knowledge. He can't and doesn't. I found out that when I write parts and lines (mostly harmony lines for Scots/Irish trad tunes for acoustic guitar and tenor banjo) he has to convert them to tab. Which is no big deal, but I could have been giving them to him converted to tab in the first place. Ain't score writing software cool? FWIW, not knowing a ton of theory isn't a problem either, just BS'ing your way through it is a bit of a flag.

Guitar dude is not uncomfortable on stage. Quite the contrary in fact. He's one of those guys that play music so he can get on stage rather than get on stage to play music if you can get the distinction. Which really isn't necessarily a bad thing if a guy's gonna sing most of the leads. Still, if he's on stage, it's good enough for him.

I'm not going to poll the rest of the band behind guitar dude's back. Anything I say one on one I try to keep positive. When I open my mouth about it, it'll be in front of the whole band. And I'll stay away from accusatory language and keep it polite.

I'd be totally willing to work with the dude on reading standard notation, theory, rhythm guitar technique, songwriting, or anything else I could contribute. I've offered many times, just have never been taken up on it. Mostly the theory and songwriting stuff, but the rest is on the table. Dude just doesn't seem interested in putting the time into it. This is perhaps the most frustration thing about the whole deal (well the passive aggressive stuff is for the birds too), the dude has the talent, he just won't put the effort in. Or see that there's room to improve (and that he should).

When the band formed a few years ago, guitar dude stated "I really want to play more guitar in a band". I took that as he wanted to get back to playing more guitar, rather than he'd never played much guitar at all in a band situation which after talking to past folks he's played with is the case. In fact, this is only the second working band he's been in. Which isn't a crime unless you don't want to get any feedback from folks who have been gigging since the '80's.

I'm not going to give the "him or me" ultimatum. If progress isn't made, I will jet. There are bands where that would be appropriate, but this isn't one of them.

FWIW, everyone in the band are really nice people. Even guitar dude. Even if he's a bit shallow (and that really surprised me when I realized it) he's one of the nicest guys ever to walk the dirt. I feel like I'm kicking a puppy when I think poorly about his musicianship. I guess I'm getting tired of the puppy peeing on the carpet...


what keeps me in the band right now? I honestly like everyone in the band. Fiddle chick is phenomenal. Drummer chick is super fun and is a huge plus on stage. Bass dude is one of my best friends ever. I actually like guitar dude as a person overall. And I get payed. Well better than average in this town and I don't have to play casinos way out of town to get it. And the potential of the band is huge, even if guitar dude is stagnant personally. TBH, there are flashes of greatness every single show. There are also *** moments Every. Single. Show.

thanks for reading these long ass posts.

At this point, TLDR, but there is one thing I will never understand. Why do people in "therapy" seem to want to tell this to everybody they know? And what's that got to do with being in a band?

 

[Slevage]

Stay if you can tolerate it, BUT,
The guy is probably never going to refine his skills if he hasn’t had the desire to by now.

 

[Ostie]

It sounds like it’s a better idea all around to boot out P.A. busy guitar guy.

This. Dude sounds like a PITA. He’s probably on the acoustic guitar forum complaining about you right now.

 

[LBS-bass]

At this point, TLDR, but there is one thing I will never understand. Why do people in "therapy" seem to want to tell this to everybody they know? And what's that got to do with being in a band?

Being in a band is almost all about interpersonal skills. It's also about musical skills, but you can have chops and never be able to work with anyone.

Why do people mention it? Possibly because there's such a stigma attached to it that people who find it useful want to let others know that it's not something to fear. I'n not in therapy, BTW, but I wouldn't hesitate to use that tool if I thought it would help me and if I could afford it.

So the question now is, why not mention it? And why pull that one thing out of the long post and dwell on it as a negative?

 

[Chango Malo]

I mentioned it so that people reading the thread realize that the rest of us don't think our poop don't stink and are actively working on improving 'things'.

FWIW, the two chicks in the band see the same things as the two dudes not playing acoustic guitar. They just have been more mature about their responses . One has also been planning a big wedding that just happened and the other just got divorced, so the band issues have been back burnered (and rightly so) in thier worlds

 

[bbh]

so:

Playing in a band for nigh on 4 years now. I'm playing guitar, mandolin, bouzouki, and singing. We also have fiddle/vox, acoustic guitar/tenor banjo/vox, bass, and percussion/vox.
rhythm section: solid, dependable, good meter, good groove. I've played with bass dude in a couple other bands as well. He's my favorite bass player in Seattle.
fiddle player: great chops and has some of the best damned ears ever. She'll quote my own fills and solo bits back after hearing it once.

which leads me to acoustic guitar/tenor banjo/vox dude. He's singing 90% of the lead. Which isn't a problem, just a data point. He's solid vocally, good phrasing, isn't pitchy at all, and has great diction. These things aren't the issue. Neither is the banjo stuff. He doesn't play a traditional tenor banjo style, but kind of a finger picking thing. Not BG style finger picking, more of an acoustic guitar fingerstyle thing. This is also not a problem.
Problem is a buncha other stuff.

dude is a BUSY guitar strummer. His right hand gets going and will. not. stop. bangity bangity bang all the way through. Can't not play constantly. Can't/won't palm mute anything so it just rings and rings no matter what. Only plays basic cowboy chords; it's like pulling teeth to get a 7th or god forbid a 9th or worse yet, something like a Am add 2. Try to write a guitar part that isn't cowboy chords and you can bet it'll be dumbed down and played with cowboy chords. Did I mention that he's the BUSIEST acoustic guitar strummer in the world? Absolutely has to fill every nanosecond of every beat with strumming. Plays the same few strumming patterns on everything no matter what. J. Cash and J. Carter's "jackson"? bangity bangity bangity bang all the way through, none of the classic arpeggiated guitar line. Just smash on through. It's like he's playing by himself and not listening to anything the rest of the band is playing. Rhythm section has a nice greasy groove going on? Doesn't matter, bangity bangity bang totally out of synch with what they're doing. It's mind boggling.
There's other stuff as well. Dude will write a tune and automatically think the band wants to play it. Isn't receptive to feedback about stuff he's written. At all.
Dude is really passive-aggressive. Got his feelings hurt a year ago when he pushed bass dude's buttons hard enough that bass dude told him to 'shag off, man'. Now, bass dude didn't handle it well tbh. Oh well, we all have our moments. Problem is guitar dude held that resentment for 6 freaking months and then brought it up and said "I don't want you to just say sorry, I want you to feel bad about it". W.T.F.?
In full disclosure, there were some ruffled feathers all around. Difference is when a couple folks in the band were called out on stuff, they said "damn, sorry, gonna not do that crap anymore. You're right, it's bs y'all had to deal with my poopy attitude." And then made changes to shift the sub-optimal behaviours. Guitar dude is continuing on with his P.A. crap and has taken to petty crap. Like won't respond to anything bass dude asks in the band chats or emails. Makes stage dress plans with a couple folks in the band and doesn't mention anything to others. Grabs a sub for fiddle chick (damned honeymoons in Greece) and doesn't inform bass dude.
Ignores stage issues that affect other people but will stop the show for stuff that affects him. Like last night for some reason the gain on the bass D.I. went to zero for some reason (I think someone was trying to adjust their IEM mix and fat-fingered the gain) and guitar dude's response was "let's just keep playing" HUH????? I fixed it on the fly but what a PITA.
There's a few other things, like guitar dude's penchant for rambling on explaining things to the audience, blah blah blah, but that may be that I'm just out of patience for the guy right now.

So....?

It’s just a job. There aren’t many perfect situations out there. At least you’re busy making some scratch.

 

[arbiterusa]

Talking to yourself? This might be more serious than it first appears!

He obviously meant to log in as another account for that reply. Mods, is that permissible?

 

[Cheez]

At least he's not playing tambourine!

 

[BwanaDust]

You should all just quit.