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Steve Albini explains why he hates Steely Dan

#302
Bisociation - "intentionally holding two contradictory notions in mind simultaneously"

I've long loved Steely Dan and highly respect and admire what they did. I've seen them in concert and was amazed at the remarkable musical craftmanship performed for the drunks around me, many of whom I'm confident do, in fact, own actual yachts.

I also agree with Albini's points and find them hilarious. I also left the SD show early because I couldn't as I couldn't ask my wife and daughter to sit through any more just so I could hear Freddie Washington play Chuck Rainey's bassline on "Peg."

My daughter also pointed out the similarities between a particular blues that Becker led and the Popeye's "Louisiana Fast" jingle.

 
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#303
deff said:
This thread can easily be divided between age groups and whether or not you have an affinity for any alternative music whatsoever. To the boomers and older that have never listened to or care about any avante garde rock post late 80's... Steve is one of the most important and sought after music producers there is. I'm sure he can read a chart, score or whatever you throw in front of him and if he can't it still wouldn't have any effect on his contribution to music. You dismissing him, only shows your ignorance. Sorry.... truth...

That being said, I love Steely Dan. I love Shellac and Big Black and a whole lot of the music Steve has produced. I'd be willing to bet Steve watched the same documentary on Steely Dan that I did. Their approach to studio work, could be called interesting.... I mean if you have something of an unlimitied budget and access to some of the greatest session players around and make them do stuff over and over again until you find the magic, it's almost cheating, isn't it? It still doesn't make me like their stuff any less. Fagen and Becker are amazing writers.

But every time you people say "Steve who?", you're showing that you're the one that is ignorant.
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Well, no. What you're saying is he's some guy who has sat behind a mixing board. Big woo. Do you think George Martin, or Lennon and McCartney, was more important? Who was Crosby Stills and Nash's producer? Does anyone even remember? How many musicians would recognize the name John Coltrane? How many Bob Thiele?

Opinions are like the human anus. Everyone's got one.
 
#304
turf3 said:
Well, no. What you're saying is he's some guy who has sat behind a mixing board. Big woo. Do you think George Martin, or Lennon and McCartney, was more important? Who was Crosby Stills and Nash's producer? Does anyone even remember? How many musicians would recognize the name John Coltrane? How many Bob Thiele?

Opinions are like the human anus. Everyone's got one.
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Once again, you're showing your age and ignorance. Albini helped change the face of music. Whether you like it or not, bands that he was in which probably have more in common with Coltrane than Steely Dan, created genre's and influenced thousands of musicians for decades.
 
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#306
Well, as I note in the other thread, I don't remember anyone asking Rudy Van Gelder for his opinion on musicians, nor would his clients have been interested, I expect.

No one's yet explained to me why the engineer on a bunch of recordings has an opinion that I need to pay attention to.
 
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#308
deff said:
Once again, you're showing your age and ignorance. Albini helped change the face of music. Whether you like it or not, bands that he was in which probably have more in common with Coltrane than Steely Dan, created genre's and influenced thousands of musicians for decades.
Click to expand...
Sadly, the word "ignorance" has taken on negative meanings, when all it really means is that someone is unaware of something. And yes, people in different age groups have different lived experiences, exposure to different cultural elements, and so forth. It's not realistic to expect everyone, everywhere, to be aware and familiar with everything. So maybe we stop lobbing insults around and start listening to and learning from each other, in order to increase our awareness.

The other side of this coin would be people who are unaware of historically significant things. A few weeks ago someone here was talking about Aerosmith's "original version" of Walking the Dog. I run into people all the time who think the Talking Heads wrote Take me to the River. And there are plenty of things I'm learning every single day. For sure I have ignorance but there is a vast difference between ignorance and stupidity.
 
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#309
turf3 said:
Well, as I note in the other thread, I don't remember anyone asking Rudy Van Gelder for his opinion on musicians, nor would his clients have been interested, I expect.

No one's yet explained to me why the engineer on a bunch of recordings has an opinion that I need to pay attention to.
Click to expand...

Has anyone asked you to pay attention to his opinion?

:whistle:

This applies to everyone posting in this thread, myself included.
 
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#310
Lots of people have "helped change the face of music", but that doesn't mean that - for example - Leo Fender's opinions on the bass playing of Monk Montgomery versus John Entwistle would be of any particular importance.
 
#311
deff said:
Once again, you're showing your age and ignorance. Albini helped change the face of music. Whether you like it or not, bands that he was in which probably have more in common with Coltrane than Steely Dan, created genre's and influenced thousands of musicians for decades.
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nobody cares about engineers except a select few and they prob only know 3 engineers anyways. im very confused as to what steve did to change the face of music. i hate to sound like a broken record but his list of bands is a who's who of who are you?
 
#312
LBS-bass said:
Sadly, the word "ignorance" has taken on negative meanings, when all it really means is that someone is unaware of something. And yes, people in different age groups have different lived experiences, exposure to different cultural elements, and so forth. It's not realistic to expect everyone, everywhere, to be aware and familiar with everything. So maybe we stop lobbing insults around and start listening to and learning from each other, in order to increase our awareness.

The other side of this coin would be people who are unaware of historically significant things. A few weeks ago someone here was talking about Aerosmith's "original version" of Walking the Dog. I run into people all the time who think the Talking Heads wrote Take me to the River. And there are plenty of things I'm learning every single day. For sure I have ignorance but there is a vast difference between ignorance and stupidity.
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Absolutely. I did mean it as "not having knowledge of", maybe only in a semi pejorative way. Once again though, there have been post upon post upon post of people showing what Steve is famous for and people are willfully ignoring that he has made a significant contribution to music.

As a fun example Steve recorded "In Color" for Cheap Trick because they were never happy with the production. It's amazing if you're into that record. I bet he also didn't take a penny for doing it.



Oh yeah and turn it up. It's amazing.
 
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#313
LBS-bass said:
This is what's killing me in this thread. Forget about the Dan. Everyone in this thread is using the words "produced" and "producer" and this guy has produced nothing. He takes the music people have already written it and bottles it up as is.

Now, there's nothing wrong with doing that. It's actually a very nice way to honor someone's creative abilities without altering their intent and there's a place in the world for it, for sure. But calling that "production" is a bridge way too far for me.
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I have a vague recollection of him describing himself as a "recordist".


I think this quote from his string of tweets is consistent with that, what he does, his approach and philosophy.

"Two types of perfectionist: One will prepare, revise and rehearse carefully, with intent, honing an idea to a keen edge, ready to cut the cloth of execution. The other makes other people responsible by saying, "do it again," until by chance they are satisfied, then take credit."​
 
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#314
deff said:
Absolutely. I did mean it as "not having knowledge of", maybe only in a semi pejorative way. Once again though, there have been post upon post upon post of people showing what Steve is famous for and people are willfully ignoring that he has made a significant contribution to music.

As a fun example Steve recorded "In Color" for Cheap Trick because they were never happy with the production. It's amazing if you're into that record. I bet he also didn't take a penny for doing it.



Oh yeah and turn it up. It's amazing.
Click to expand...


So I looked this up. It seems that after Cheap Trick released this album in 1977, selling gazillions of copies and being constantly on the radio (I was there, and I bet you weren't), then the band went back into the studio decades later and re-recorded it because they thought it'd sound better? So what? No one cares. Their name was made back in the late 70s. If they choose to repeat something they did years ago, that's largely irrelevant.
 
#316
deff said:
people are willfully ignoring that he has made a significant contribution to music.
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Willful ignorance is definitely a different thing entirely.

For whatever reason, Steve was in the right place at the right time and knew the right people to find himself in a position to bottle up some pretty significant music, regardless of how he did it. People might not be aware of the significance of some of the bands he worked with, but that doesn't erase their significance.
 
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#318
Grinderman said:
I have a vague recollection of him describing himself as a "recordist".


I think this quote from his string of tweets is consistent with that, what he does, his approach and philosophy.

"Two types of perfectionist: One will prepare, revise and rehearse carefully, with intent, honing an idea to a keen edge, ready to cut the cloth of execution. The other makes other people responsible by saying, "do it again," until by chance they are satisfied, then take credit."​
Click to expand...
The best engineers I've worked with are often the guys at the control board asking for another take. Why is it them and not the producer? Because they're the ones who are going to be asked to fix it if it's not great to begin with and they know there's only so much they can do.

We have better technology for fixing a multitude of things now, but the engineer has always had the best ears for this because they know what it means for them to get something down that doesn't need to be futzed around with later.
 
#320
turf3 said:
So I looked this up. It seems that after Cheap Trick released this album in 1977, selling gazillions of copies and being constantly on the radio (I was there, and I bet you weren't), then the band went back into the studio decades later and re-recorded it because they thought it'd sound better? So what? No one cares. Their name was made back in the late 70s. If they choose to repeat something they did years ago, that's largely irrelevant.
Click to expand...
This has nothing to do with relevance, merely something cool. It's very obvious that music post a certain timeframe means little to you and you have no desire to learn anything about his contributions.

Also I was around then. I'm 59.
 
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