Stiffening Rods and Dead Spots

[Old Fart]

I am told, and I believe, that stiffening rods help to eliminated dead spots. My question is this: Would graphite stiffening rods work against dead spots as well as steel ones? Steel is heavier than graphite. The Warmoth website says this:

"Stiffening bars are installed on both sides of the truss rod in Super Bass necks to enhance stability and add mass which helps to eliminate dead spots."

Invalid Link Removed

Depending on how you read this sentence, Warmoth may believe it is the MASS that helps to eliminate dead spots, not the STIFFENING. I'm not even sure graphite rods add weight to the neck. Maybe a little.

I suspect that graphite rods do stiffen the neck and that this likely does help to eliminate dead spots, but I just wonder if graphite is less effective at eliminating dead spots.

Thank you in advance for your input.

For extra credit: I also suspect that quarter-sawn necks might also help eliminate dead spots. Any ideas about this?

 

[JimmyM]

I’m not about to put steel rods in the neck of my bass! I’m looking to reduce weight.

I think they do help with dead spots, although I’m one of those people who doesn’t give dead spots a second thought.

 

[T_Bone_TL]

Background reading WRT Quartersawn necks and why they may not be all you've imagined them to be.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

I remember they used to sell those "Fat Finger" clip on weights you could put on your headstock, which didn't so much eliminate dead spots as move them around, and if it moved them someplace you rarely played, that wss good enough. Since every piece of wood is unique, it may be impossible to eliminate dead spots entirely, somewhere on the neck is going to resonate in a way that tends to cancel certain frequncies, maybe thats inevitable on any neck. Interestingly, my Steinberger XP has a neck made entirely of CF, and if it's got any deadpsots, I can't find them. I'm sceptical that two thin CF rods in a wood neck would eliminate deadspots, I've been putting them in all my wood necks to add rigidity and some resistance to seasonal changes. I'll have to listen hard and see if I can hear any obvious dead spots or "wolf tones" on my builds. It may just be a bit of marketing hyperbole by Warmoth, but they are seriously nice necks regardless. I have a Warmoth neck, circa 1986 on my fretless Frankenjazz, and it's never given me a lick of trouble in all these years. That's good enough reason to buy one.

 

[superheavyfunk]

I’ve personally never enjoyed the balance of a bass with stiffening rods in the neck. Makes them all super neck heavy.

But that’s not really what you’re asking about, so I’ll just take my leave. Cheers

 

[bdplaid]

Warmoth steel rods make their necks heavy. Graphite less so. I have a now-sadly-defunct USACG neck with graphite rods that plays beautifully. I am told that Fender claims to use rods, but are actually dowels wrapped in graphite. The last Fender I had with so-called graphite rods had dead spots. Fender Player, Squier and Mighty Mite necks don't have rods, are lightweight and can play great, but some do have dead spots. I have learned to live with them.

 

[GMC]

Every bass neck has dead spots. It's a resonance thing and it's how the physics work. Maple fender style necks unfortunatly lead to dead spots in the playing range of the bass so we get these dead frets where the resonance of the material and shape kills the tone. Different materials, mass or shape of the headstock usually moves this resonant frequency either below the audible range or above the playing range of the instrument...which effectively stops the dead spot being and issue (although it still exists at some frequency).
So yes it does work...or get another neck fashioned from a different material. Or choose a lighter material like carbon fibre or titanium.
I've had very little deadspots with purpleheart necks (or laminates).

 

[Beej]

The weight with aluminum or carbon fiber rods isn't too bad. I often use dual 1/8"x1/2"x20" aluminum reinforcement bars on either side of the truss rod. I've calculated that it adds about 40g or 1.4 oz to the overall weight of the neck. The 1/8"x3/8"x20" CF bars I have also used add about 1.2 oz. To be fair though, the added stiffness and stability introduced by the bars permits thinner necks and asymmetrical necks and helps to keep things stable over time and through seasons.

 

[Tim Skaggs]

Mass &/or an increase in stiffness of a bass neck will both change the resonant frequency of a bass neck. How much each changes the frequency and which way the resonant peak moves is probably near impossible to calculate. Before the fat finger there were some who put a small “C” clamp on the headstock of their bass to change the location of a dead spot. If you hold the headstock of a bass against a speaker cabinet and play the note where there is a dead spot, it becomes a hot spot of sustain until you break contact between the headstock and the (vibrating) speaker cab. Neither of these methods adds stiffness; both are a change in mass. All solid objects have a resonant frequency. The physical size, shape, mass / density of the material will change the resonant frequency of the solid object. As @GMC mentioned, the best way to eliminate dead spots is to construct an instrument with a resonant frequency outside the frequency range that can be produced by the instrument.

 

[darwin-bass]

Years ago Warmoth only used steel. Said it reduced hot and dead spots. Market pressure pushed them to offer graphite as an option. There used to be a note on their site that said the graphite bars did not work as well as steel reducing dead spots but they offer graphite to give their customers more choices.

 

[Alex Xander]

I almost always use 304 stainless in my necks. Twin 3mm x 12mm either side of the trussrod. That’s about 1/8 x 1/2” for imperial folk.

The depth of the reinforcement has significantly more effect on the rigidity of the structure than most other factors. Stiffness increases with the cube of the depth. A 12mm deep bar has eight times the stiffness of a 6mm bar. With that said, the depth in the neck also has an impact. The greater the offset from the fretboard, the less force required to counteract the bending moment in the neck. This is why the likes of @Bruce Johnson can get a substantial change in neck behaviour with a small strip of carbon tow under the trussrod.

Confined in all dimensions through the use of epoxy bedding (important for confining the stress to the Z axis of the reinforcement), I have found thin stainless steel reinforcement to be worth the weight, although, to use an Australian term, the increase in weight (IMHO) is “bugger all”.

Stainless is readily available, cheap, and depending on the grade, has a higher modulus of elasticity/rigidity than carbon.

My necks do not have dead spots, though my not so golden ears would say that the stiffer necks I have made (I did one with four 3mm x 12mm bars) sound brighter.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

To say that steel (or graphite) rods will "eliminate" dead spots is a downright lie. I absolutely love the quality of Warmoth necks/bodies (if maybe not their P-bass neck profiles...) but I wish they wouldn't make silly marketing claims like that. I have yet to play a bass that doesn't have dead spots, including Warmoths. Some basses certainly have far less pronounced dead spots than others, but they're always there. At least on every single bass I've ever played. You can't get around the laws of physics.

When people say their basses have "no dead spots" it often turns out that they don't understand what a dead spot really is. A very common misconception seems to be that fret buzz or "choking" due to issues with the frets or a poor setup = dead spot. It's not.

It's also worth noting that in some cases dead spots may not be very noticeable when practising alone, or even at band rehearsals. This can happen because higher harmonics will typically still be present even if the fundamental has no sustain due to the dead spot. But then you play a gig through a huge PA system and the bass suddenly seems to drop out of the mix completely on certain notes. The same can happen when recording. Everything sounds ok until the mixing stage and then certain bass notes may seem to more or less "disappear" in the mix. This is often caused by a deadspot, and no amount of eq/compression can "fix it in the mix".

Steel/graphite rods will change the mass and the distribution of mass, which means that in theory it can certainly have some kind of effect on dead spots. But it won't "eliminate" them.

FWIW, my two Warmoth P-basses with graphite rods both have less pronounced dead spots than any of my around 20 Fender/Squier P- and J-basses, including my Fenders with graphite rods.

On the other hand , the less pronounced dead spots on my two Warmoths seem to be spread over a wider range of frets than on my Fenders/Squiers. I typically find that on basses that suffer from an extreme dead spot, it's usually limited to ONE or maybe two frets that are utterly useless. On my Warmoths the deadspots don't really make these notes/frets useless but the sustain is noticeably poorer over a range of 4-5 frets.

I don't think I've ever played a Warmoth with steel rods, so I can't comment on those, except that they would have to re-write the laws of physics to "eliminate" dead spots, even with steel rods.

 

[Gervais Cote]

I won’t get into physic laws in deep but all I know is this :

The most lively neck without dead spots I ever had is a Warmoth slim taper jazz neck made of roasted maple with steel reinforcement bars.

The second best is a jazz neck made of roasted maple without reinforcement. Fender MIM actually.

And my third best is a full maple jazz neck that’s around 10 years old. (It seems to me they dry out with time and become more rigid)

I had a Warmoth neck, standard jazz, made of quarter sawn maple, dark rosewood fretboard with graphite reinforcement bars and it was dead and lifeless. Got rid of it within a few months.

I tried many Jazz bass with graphite reinforcement bars and they all had dead spots and were lifeless. Fender AM Pro II to be exact. OTHO, a Fender Jazz American Performer is much more lively in comparison. Their necks are maple without reinforcement. Pure coincidence ?

 

[Old Fart]

I think we said "help to" eliminate dead spots.

I care less about dead spots than weight, but I care about both. There doesn't seem to be a "no stiffening rods" option at Warmoth, though they may be willing to delete this feature as a special order. Or they may not. I think I will order this neck with graphite rods, mostly because of the reduced weight compared to steel, and I suspect it will affect dead spots, reduce their effect, without adding much weight. As some have suggested here.

FWIW, I have noticed certain dead notes so prominent that the note virtually disappears in the mix. As at least one has suggested here. That note is usually a C# on the G string.

I really appreciate the input here. Thank you.

 

[FunkHead]

Most necks, You really have to search hard to find any dead spots. I have 5 basses now with no noticable dead spots. Out of hundreds, I've had maybe 2 or 3 that you could find a dead spot on.

 

[Old Fart]

I tried many Jazz bass with graphite reinforcement bars and they all had dead spots and were lifeless.

This is scary.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

This lead block was discovered set into a Ric neck, apparently an attempt to eliminate dead spots. It's unknown how many basses this was tried on, since you'd have to pry off the fingerboard to find them. This always seemed like a solution in search of a problem, but maybe I just got lucky in my basses.... or my hearing sucks.

 

[Beej]

I used to think dead spots were something that only golden-eared cork sniffers could detect, but I have come across a handful of necks where there is a pronounced dead spot. All of them however, have been archaic one piece neck designs, a la Fender. I've never found one on any of my own multilam, reinforced necks, but I'm not entirely sure why. I'm curious as to folks like @Bruce Johnson and @rudy4444 's thoughts on the subject.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

Same here, I didn't want to sound smug, but I can't hear any pronounced dead spots on my vast output of (4) bass builds, all multi-lam necks with CF stiffeners and a single DA rod, but the "cork sniffers" might beg to differ. Maybe multi-lam construction scrambles the deadening resonance enough to make it un-noticeable? Or... something? (insert Bad Physics Here)

 

[Lo-E]

(insert Bad Physics Here)

Obviously, multi-lam necks have a much higher Groove Modulus. (gM)