Stoopid Kweschun

[bucephylus]

Now I may be totally naïve - and I am - but I have a stupid question for y’all:

Why can’t you take a cheap @$$ bass, and have a luthier do a top notch fret job on it, and make it play like a $10,000 boutique bass?

(Told you it was stoopid)

NOT stupid.

The player is FAR more important than the instrument; and can make differences between inexpensive and expensive basses to be vanishingly small. So, first things first: Practice. The player makes the instrument great, not the other way around.

Still…the goal in performance is generally to forget about the instrument while playing, and concentrate on the bass part you are playing within the dynamics of the ensemble. Such concentration does require that there is minimal to no distraction by external factors, such as some issue with the instrument. Expensive or not, the instrument needs to be well setup, and have appropriate sounds for the performance readily accessible.

Inexpensive instruments CAN satisfy those requirements. But, it is also true that more expensive instruments may check the above boxes with less or no effort. Aspects, such as how stable / unstable is the neck with seasonal changes come into play. How well leveled are the frets? How well does the truss rod compensate for RH changes? How quiet are the electronics? Do the electronics achieve the range of tones needed? Is the instrument too heavy / light? Does the appearance bug you? Etc.

Further, it can be a waste of money commissioning an instrument, if you don’t yet know all those kinds of things; because you just don’t know what to ask for.

One of the most talented guitarists I ever worked with played a Squire.

Less expensive instruments can very definitely be modified; both setup and electronics - the latter especially if you are a bit handy with the soldering iron. So, there is that as well. But. You need to know what you are looking for and be prepared to learn by making mistakes.

Best of luck; enjoy the ride.

 

[Tim Skaggs]

Now I may be totally naïve - and I am - but I have a stupid question for y’all:

Why can’t you take a cheap @$$ bass, and have a luthier do a top notch fret job on it, and make it play like a $10,000 boutique bass?

(Told you it was stoopid)

Not impossible, but also not likely. There are so many things about a bass neck that can be high quality or mediocre that good fret work can’t affect. The cut of the wood in relation to the grain. The curing / drying of the wood. Then, there are the things done to the neck; fret slotting, truss rod channel cutting, tuner hole drilling, etc. that can be done precisely or poorly. Some of these things won’t change from a top notch fret job.

It’s a little like trying to cook goodness into a bad cut of meat. A great fret job can’t fix a neck cut out of a bad piece of wood or cut incorrectly in relation to the grain of the wood.

 

[MVE]

You absolutely can make a cheap bass play like an expensive bass! (barring anything structurally wrong with the instrument)

But… it would probably cost about 3-400 dollars.

Is it worth spending that on a $400 bass? Which, even after that’s done, would still be nothing more than a nice playing $400 bass.?.?.?

 

[MVE]

Not impossible, but also not likely. There are so many things about a bass neck that can be high quality or mediocre that good fret work can’t affect. The cut of the wood in relation to the grain. The curing / drying of the wood. Then, there are the things done to the neck; fret slotting, truss rod channel cutting, tuner hole drilling, etc. that can be done precisely or poorly. Some of these things won’t change from a top notch fret job.

It’s a little like trying to cook goodness into a bad cut of meat. A great fret job can’t fix a neck cut out of a bad piece of wood or cut incorrectly in relation to the grain of the wood.

I respectfully disagree.
Your response is based on the assumption that a cheap instrument is guaranteed to be cut out of a “bad piece of wood” or otherwise crafted in a sloppy manner.
Sure, there might be a greater chance that its poorly selected lumber, but not always. And today’s cheap instruments are all cut by cnc machines, this almost guarantees things like fret slotting, truss rod channel and tuner holes are all done absolutely precisely.

 

[Aloe]

first, cheap basses need frets done more urgently than expensive ones. they’re cheap, the manufacturer needs to cut corners.

second, you definitely can dress frets, install premium pickups and nice hardware to a dirt cheap bass. but it still will be a cheap bass in sense it will sell very cheap despite of everything you do with it.

third, is the difference between a modded $300 and a $3000 bass real? imo yes.

 

[JoeyFab]

1. No boutique bass justifies a price above $3000-4000 in terms of functionality or build quality.
Anything above $4000 is purely branding and name \ history of the company.

Yeah, I'm also gonna shoot this statement down. Good luck trying to make a decent profit building a bass guitar from scratch and selling it for 4 Gs. Factor in the costs of tools, materials, harware, and time, and it seems to me you'll be lucky to break even. Obviously, the cost of tools can be amortized over many builds, if you survive that long, but still.

 

[Wyvern]

Yeah, I'm also gonna shoot this statement down. Good luck trying to make a decent profit building a bass guitar from scratch and selling it for 4 Gs. Factor in the costs of tools, materials, harware, and time, and it seems to me you'll be lucky to break even. Obviously, the cost of tools can be amortized over many builds, if you survive that long, but still.

If you do it as a side gig, it's totally doable below that price, if you do it to eat and put a roof over your head, you need to churn them out quick or sell much higher.

Some shops have CNC that drastically cuts down production time, but a CNC is a seriously expensive tool.

Things like pre-slotted boards and semi-finished neck blanks can make churning them out faster.

You could also be morally grey and have China CNC you your basic template at a low price- but, that's Dingwalls "hybrid" manufacturing model, and it works pretty well for them and people pay because it's finished well in Canada.

If I was rich, a $7500 Wal or MTD would be fine because it will be an excellent piece of art, but joe-schmo instrument at that price can be excellent, or a pile of crap- no way I'd spend that.

 

[Malak the Mad]

Thanks everybody for your responses. They were all good and wise and basically telling me I’m being an idiot for thinking such things. (but I can dream can’t I?)

I guess in the final equation, you basically get what you pay for, don’t you? Thanks again for your time. Really appreciate the thoughtful replies.

I see no idiocy at work here. It's a valid question. I say, ignore the reflexive "YOU CAN'T" replies and hang on to your dreams, because sometimes, you luck out!

It takes some patience, a discerning eye/hand/ear/whatever and, perhaps, a little bit of that luck, but there are times when a real "diamond in the rough" shakes loose and into your hands. For me, it's happened here or there. The best was when a real gear-snob got his hands on a Projekt of mine built around a Mexican-made Fender body and used, Indonesian-made Squier neck. I clearly remember him running his hands up and down the neck with a baffled look on his face.

• HIM: Did you give this neck a fret-job?!
• ME: Nope, it came to me just like that.
• HIM: <continues to glide hand up & down the neck, bafflement turning into incredulity>
• ME: Look, a good piece of wood is a good piece of wood, no matter what's it's country-of-origin.

I swear, I thought smoke was about to start pouring out of his ears! Even on his way out the door, he shot me a look that still makes me wonder if he thought I'd used dark magick or something in it's construction! Suffice it to say, I'm not about to part with that neck anytime soon!

And, for a bit of physical evidence…

So, my advice is to keep a weather eye open. You never know what will make itself available.

 

[JoeyFab]

If you do it as a side gig, it's totally doable below that price, if you do it to eat and put a roof over your head, you need to churn them out quick or sell much higher.

Some shops have CNC that drastically cuts down production time, but a CNC is a seriously expensive tool.

Things like pre-slotted boards and semi-finished neck blanks can make churning them out faster.

You could also be morally grey and have China CNC you your basic template at a low price- but, that's Dingwalls "hybrid" manufacturing model, and it works pretty well for them and people pay because it's finished well in Canada.

If I was rich, a $7500 Wal or MTD would be fine because it will be an excellent piece of art, but joe-schmo instrument at that price can be excellent, or a pile of crap- no way I'd spend that.

Any thoughts on what Warmoth does?

 

[JoeyFab]

I see no idiocy at work here. It's a valid question. I say, ignore the reflexive "YOU CAN'T" replies and hang on to your dreams, because sometimes, you luck out!

It takes some patience, a discerning eye/hand/ear/whatever and, perhaps, a little bit of that luck, but there are times when a real "diamond in the rough" shakes loose and into your hands. For me, it's happened here or there. The best was when a real gear-snob got his hands on a Projekt of mine built around a Mexican-made Fender body and used, Indonesian-made Squier neck. I clearly remember him running his hands up and down the neck with a baffled look on his face.

• HIM: Did you give this neck a fret-job?!
• ME: Nope, it came to me just like that.
• HIM: <continues to glide hand up & down the neck, bafflement turning into incredulity>
• ME: Look, a good piece of wood is a good piece of wood, no matter what's it's country-of-origin.

I swear, I thought smoke was about to start pouring out of his ears! Even on his way out the door, he shot me a look that still makes me wonder if he thought I'd used dark magick or something in it's construction! Suffice it to say, I'm not about to part with that neck anytime soon!

And, for a bit of physical evidence…

So, my advice is to keep a weather eye open. You never know what will make itself available.

I've got a $199 Chinese Fender Strat SSH (that came with a small Fender amp, cord, and picks) that we got for my step-daughter to learn how to play. She quickly gave up on it, so I inherited it and it sat in my band's rehearsal room in case one of the guitarists needed it. One of them picked it up one day and started playing on it, and after a few rehearsals doing that he offered to buy it from me. It was then I knew that I actually had a half-way decent instrument that I got for peanuts. I chalk it up to maybe this particular guitar hit the middle point of a very large acceptable quality range. It now hangs in my practice room in case I ever need it.

 

[CamJazzBass]

Now I may be totally naïve - and I am - but I have a stupid question for y’all:

Why can’t you take a cheap @$$ bass, and have a luthier do a top notch fret job on it, and make it play like a $10,000 boutique bass?

(Told you it was stoopid)

You might get a damn good bass out of it. I’ve done it. But bones are bones. You won’t equal a $10M bass.

 

[GIBrat51]

Now I may be totally naïve - and I am - but I have a stupid question for y’all:

Why can’t you take a cheap @$$ bass, and have a luthier do a top notch fret job on it, and make it play like a $10,000 boutique bass?

(Told you it was stoopid)

Well...
I have to say; this is definitely an "it depends" situation. So...
First? I wouldn't say it was a "stoopid" question. Maybe more of a "naive"/uninformed question. As the owner of a few high-end/low volume basses, and a "boutique" one, too - as well as some... pretty low price basses, I'd have to say that there are a few more differences than just a fret job. For instance;
1. The wood. Boutique basses are generally made from the best wood that the builders can get their hands on. The best wood is generally the most expensive wood - regardless of the type. You might find green sapwood ( the kind that will warp like crazy, down the road) in a cheap bass; you will not find it in a "boutique bass".
2. Craftsmanship. "Boutique" basses are just built better than cheap ones, even though these days? There are probably CNC machines involved in both. Even if there are? The machines require maintenance/adjustment, and cutting tools wear out. It's very unlikely they're worn out on the boutique company's machines...
3 Hardware. "Cheap @ss" basses use cheap @ss hardware - it's the one of the reasons why they're cheap. Some "boutique" companies - like Alembic, for instance - make their own electronics; pickups; and just about everything else but the tuners and the strings. Others make some of their hardware, but they always buy top shelf stuff when they don't.
4. Hand work. The number of skilled hands that the bass passes through - and the length of time those hands are on it - are one of the primary things that determine why a bass is "High end/Boutique", or "cheap @ss". High end basses have skilled hands on them to make them just right - and beady eyed, hands-on QC people to make sure they are. OTOH, "cheap @ss" basses get banged out like chicklets, and QC is a bored, underpaid person who looks at it (maybe); says "Yeah, it looks OK" - and moves on to the next one coming down the conveyer belt. Human involvement costs $$'s, and cheap @ss basses get as little as the bean counters will tolerate...
So... bottom line? As long as there's nothing intrinsically bad - structurally - with a "Cheap @ss" bass? Depending on how much work - and $$'s - you want to expend, it's perfectly possible to turn it into a really nice bass. Will it be the equivalent of a $10K "boutique" bass? It 's unlikely that it will look as nice, but... if it doesn't sound as nice, it could be pretty darn close. And how much it doesn't, will probably come down to - much as I hate to say it - the wood the bass is made from. Still, there quite a few people here who like to do stuff like that - and quite often, their end results are... surprisingly good. How often the project fails though, is not something people are willing to post about very often...

 

[Gosho]

Because theres much more behind this question than just a technical comparison. Like almost everything in life(car,house,toothbrush), it involves psychology, philosophy, and personal preferences. For me its not about whats cheaper or more logical. For each of us, the answer will be different because its based on different values, motivations, emotions, and our relationship with the instrument.

 

[ph0rk]

First thing is it isn't stoopid, it's stupid. Second, why would anyone waste a bunch of money on a cheap azz bass?

To fill time while we wait to die (just like anything else)?

This question doesn't seem that different than the idea motivating most project instruments. Especially if the person wants to learn to level and crown their own frets.

I wouldn't mind a good shape project instrument to do exactly this on, and whether or not I pay a Luthier to do it, I value my spare time very highly - and that time never comes back. And yet, just like everyone else, I'm always looking for new ways to spend (waste) that time. I do think I'd rather just buy a high quality neck, though, but that's me.

Also, what sells for $300 now is so much better than what was selling for $300 30 years ago - and that's before considering that $300 in 1996 is worth $650 today!

 

[Wyvern]

Any thoughts on what Warmoth does?

Warmoth is pretty crazy high for their fancy necks to be honest, bodies are high too.

But it allows anyone to build their dream bass with minimal effort- when it's all said and done you're essentially paying full retail for a production fender, but with all the high end hardware and electronics you want vs. upgrading something you already bought at full retail.

If more builders made kits, it would be a good gig if you had a CNC and a makeshift paint booth.

 

[brushfirewolf]

$10000 basses aren't all about playing better. If you're paying 10k for a bass most of that is the badge and the pretty things they put into it . Chances are your cheap bass already does play like a 10k bass.

I'd say, at that price, it is in fact mostly about playing better. There's absolutely zero chance your cheap bass will play anything like a ~$10k bass assuming it's from a reputable builder and not just some super inflated vintage bass.

From my experience, the more you spend on an instrument, the better it feels to play. It may not sound 10x better but you should for damn sure feel it.

 

[SharpCat]

But it allows anyone to build their dream bass with minimal effort- when it's all said and done you're essentially paying full retail for a production fender, but with all the high end hardware and electronics you want vs. upgrading something you already bought at full retail.

I wouldn’t say it’s high. Yes, it’s higher than a Squier or a MIM, but Warmoth parts are USA made and should be compared to American Fenders. And I think in most cases you’ll come out lower with the Warmoth build. I would also say Warmoth tolerances and QC are better than Fender.

 

[ph0rk]

There's a lot more cognitive effort involved in speccing out a Warmoth, though - vs say buying a Squier CV or Player series and changing a handful of things. It requires more from the buyer/builder.

I sort of wish they sold kits, to scratch that itch.

 

[JKovax]

As pointed out, the wood used in the neck is one of the most critical things for a good instrument. You can have a skilled luthier set up an instrument to play like a dream, and in 3 weeks the wood can change and undo all of that work. There's no guarantee that a cheap instrument will use bad wood, or that a top-tier instrument won't have problems with the piece of wood that they used, but the odds are stacked heavily in favor of the high-end instrument having the better piece of material. You may luck out by upgrading a cheap instrument, but be aware that the odds are that you'll be "polishing a turd".

Incidentally, a shortage of old-growth exotic hardwoods prompted Martin Guitar in the '70s to buy up square miles of forest in SE Asia. They're now a leading supplier of exotic hardwoods for guitar manufacture and other high-end applications. Companies such as Steinberger have bypassed the problem by using other exotic (and expensive) materials such as carbon fiber.

I've got a vintage early-'70s Rickenbacker that I bought in the mid-to-late '70s, which played like a dream for over a decade with no issues. After a disastrous band breakup in the late '80s, I quit playing and put the Rick up in the unheated attic for over 35 years. About 3 years ago, I took up playing again, pulled the bass out of the attic, and discovered that it was STILL IN TUNE. That's a fantastic piece of wood, done right.

In contrast, I bought a used Peavey International series bass for not much more than lunch money, which clearly needed a truss rod adjustment. Turns out, the truss rod was already bottomed out. Inserting a couple of washers to bring it back to a usable adjustment range allowed me to get it "playable", but in a matter of a month, it had warped further. I could put guitar strings on it and use it as a cheese slicer, but otherwise it's absolutely useless. Whatever chunk of wood they used for the neck was garbage, and no amount of effort (short of a neck replacement) is ever going to make it play like a $500 instrument (much less a $10K) for more than a few weeks at most.

 

[bholder]

No amount of detailing will make a Ford Escort run like a Maserati....