I'm not being simplistic. I'm quoting the 12 steps word for word.
But let me see if I understand what you're saying. AA isn't a cure, per se, it's an ongoing treatment. Sort of like HIV drugs.
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Stop drinking
- Thread starter SpanishDave
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I'm not being simplistic. I'm quoting the 12 steps word for word.
But let me see if I understand what you're saying. AA isn't a cure, per se, it's an ongoing treatment. Sort of like HIV drugs.
Can you name another disease that is based around a choice?
To quote that paper again, "This supposed disease's symptoms are only discovered after the consumption of alcohol. The health risks, dangerous behaviors and repercussions only materialize after the alcohol is consumed and not before. In comparison, the diagnosis for cancer comes after symptoms surface or cancerous cell are discovered. There are physically visible anomalies that can be measured. This measurement does not exist with alcoholics... While cancer is a separate entity of its own within the body that first exists without the knowledge of its host, over consumption of alcohol, a substance consumed by choice, is necessary before a diagnosis can be made. That is to say that one must choose to create the condition before the condition can exist and subsequently be diagnosed. "
I do think there is a difference between being an alcoholic and just being a drunk. Us drunks don't have to go to those stupid meetings.
I don't know (or care) what your agenda is, but the overwhelming consensus of the medical community is that alcoholism IS a disease. Characterizing it any other way is just plain and simple, a lie. The fact that a small group of crackpots won't accept it is irrelevant.
I'm done here. I don't argue whether or not gravity exists either.
Duuuuuuuude (and others)
I normally agree with 99% of what you post and part of me agrees with a little of what you've been saying here, but you're getting a little too amped about your non-AA stance and the medical opinion.
Truth is, the only choice a drunk (such as myself) has is whether or not to take the FIRST drink, and the choice is no longer theirs after that. I GD guarantee that.
Drunks go into AA thinking that alcohol is THE problem, when they couldn't be more wrong. Alcohol is a symptom and the problem is the person. Once that's either learned or the idea is resigned to, everything else becomes about them changing. Some who go in as non-believers end up religious, but most discover spirituality. Not the same thing.
What do you have when an A hole sobers up? A sober A hole. THAT'S what needs to change in order to maintain sobriety. I'm still very much an A hole, but I care about how I treat people now.
Love you!
I normally agree with 99% of what you post and part of me agrees with a little of what you've been saying here, but you're getting a little too amped about your non-AA stance and the medical opinion.
Truth is, the only choice a drunk (such as myself) has is whether or not to take the FIRST drink, and the choice is no longer theirs after that. I GD guarantee that.
Drunks go into AA thinking that alcohol is THE problem, when they couldn't be more wrong. Alcohol is a symptom and the problem is the person. Once that's either learned or the idea is resigned to, everything else becomes about them changing. Some who go in as non-believers end up religious, but most discover spirituality. Not the same thing.
What do you have when an A hole sobers up? A sober A hole. THAT'S what needs to change in order to maintain sobriety. I'm still very much an A hole, but I care about how I treat people now.
Love you!
I don't know (or care) what your agenda is, but the overwhelming consensus of the medical community is that alcoholism IS a disease. Characterizing it any other way is just plain and simple, a lie. The fact that a small group of crackpots won't accept it is irrelevant.
I'm done here. I don't argue whether or not gravity exists either.
You called BS when I said 'a large portion' so I repeated my source. Specifically it's S.I. Mignon. Physicians' Perceptions of Alcoholics: The Disease Concept Reconsidered. Alcoholism Treatment Quarterly, 1996, v. 14, no. 4, pp. 33–45. If you don't want to agree with them, fine. Believe whatever you want. But I was quite right when I said that 25% of doctors is a 'large portion.'
Sure, plenty of folks think that. They don't know what they're talking about.
Nope. Makes it unique. Doesn't mean it's not a disease. Call it a mental illness with a strong physical component.
but i have a question: How long are alcoholics usually in denial before they realize they are alcoholics?
And you may believe whatever you like. Anyone can find an article or two on the internet that supports their position. If you do a search of 'Is alcoholism a disease" the overwhelming consensus is that it IS. I also would want to know the agenda behind people trying to overthrow almost 60 years of accepted science. For example, the Baldwin Research Institute is very vocal because they are trying to sell their services by saying AA doesn't work. There is an agenda a work here someplace.
EDIT - I looked this up - S.I. Mignon. Physicians' Perceptions of Alcoholics - it is a survey of 26 physicians (Invalid Link Removed That's not even a BAD joke. It's statistically insignificant and doesn't prove ANYTHING.
Duuuuuuuude (and others)
I normally agree with 99% of what you post and part of me agrees with a little of what you've been saying here, but you're getting a little too amped about your non-AA stance and the medical opinion.
Truth is, the only choice a drunk (such as myself) has is whether or not to take the FIRST drink, and the choice is no longer theirs after that. I GD guarantee that.
Drunks go into AA thinking that alcohol is THE problem, when they couldn't be more wrong. Alcohol is a symptom and the problem is the person. Once that's either learned or the idea is resigned to, everything else becomes about them changing. Some who go in as non-believers end up religious, but most discover spirituality. Not the same thing.
What do you have when an A hole sobers up? A sober A hole. THAT'S what needs to change in order to maintain sobriety. I'm still very much an A hole, but I care about how I treat people now.
Love you!
I'm not getting amped up. I've been trying to keep it civil and respectful and I hope that comes across. I've seen a lot of flameouts on TB and hopefully this doesn't turn into one of them. I've been keeping my emotions out of it and it seems like others on both sides are interested in talking about facts and studies and genetics rather than myths and absurd claims.
Oh, it's definitely a potential problem. The more I drink, the more it gets my adrenaline going. And that's just part of the problem. Unfortunately that sort of tendency to abuse substances runs in my family. Those are two good reasons I'm really trying to not drink anymore.
The Alcoholism Treatment Quarterly is a quarterly peer-reviewed medical journal. I don't know how else to discern the credibility of an article.
Interestingly, I could make the same argument as a rebuttal against the disease designation. "The "recovery" community's adoption of the disease concept began with an early AA member named Marty Mann. Her efforts, combined with a somewhat dubious scientist named E.M. Jellinek, began national acceptance of the disease concept. It was Jellinek's self-proclaimed "scientific" study that opened the door for the medical community’s support. E.M. Jellinek's study was funded by the efforts of Marty Mann and R. Brinkley Smithers... There were 158 questionnaires handed out and 60 of them were suspiciously not included. His conclusion was based on less than 100 handpicked alcoholics chosen by Marty Mann." [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Remind me never to disclose how much I'll occasionally drink, seems that half of you would want to send me to rehab!
This is why I don't debate strangers on the internet. If you think that the CURRENT consensus of the medical community can be put to question by a survey of 26 physicians, then there is nothing more to debate. 'Suspiciously' not included? OK conspiracy theorist alert.
On to my ignore list you go.
