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Stringing, Tuning, Intonation and Witnesses
- Thread starter Turnaround
- Start date
Depends on the nut. Some plastic ones grab a bit on the string, but a good quality bone or Tusq nut properly cut won't bind. OTOH a little graphite won't hurt anything, so if in doubt a bit of lube may offer some surety. Personally I never lube the nut on my basses. But they all have high quality nuts.
Here's something that needs to be added to the discussion. In the video, Mike Tobias advises against setting the witness points. Check his comments starting at the 30:30 point.
And there's the catch - if you don't set the witness points, the bass will not intonate properly. And if you do set the witness points, according to Mike Tobias, you ruin the string. What's a bassist to do? Well it's not that complicated...
Before you install new strings, move the saddles back (away from the pickups) by three or four turns of the intonation screw. String it up, tune it and then set the witness points. Then check the intonation. It's probably a bit flat. Reset the intonation by adjusting the saddles a bit at a time moving them a bit closer to the pickups - once you have done this enough times you will have a pretty good idea how much to move each saddle. Reset the witness point. Retune. Recheck the intonation and continue on with these steps until the intonation is right. Since you are moving the saddles forward, you will not be introducing any kinks in the speaking part of the string where they might have adverse effects - they are behind the saddle where they have no effect at all.
And there's the catch - if you don't set the witness points, the bass will not intonate properly. And if you do set the witness points, according to Mike Tobias, you ruin the string. What's a bassist to do? Well it's not that complicated...
Before you install new strings, move the saddles back (away from the pickups) by three or four turns of the intonation screw. String it up, tune it and then set the witness points. Then check the intonation. It's probably a bit flat. Reset the intonation by adjusting the saddles a bit at a time moving them a bit closer to the pickups - once you have done this enough times you will have a pretty good idea how much to move each saddle. Reset the witness point. Retune. Recheck the intonation and continue on with these steps until the intonation is right. Since you are moving the saddles forward, you will not be introducing any kinks in the speaking part of the string where they might have adverse effects - they are behind the saddle where they have no effect at all.
Just to keep things going - here's something you can try yourself.
Next time you install a new set of strings, DO NOT set the witness points. Tune up and set the intonation. Get it as accurate as you can at the 12th fret.
Now set the witness points. Press the strings down at the saddles and at the nut. Retune (some or all of the strings will be flat). Then check the intonation. Probably at least the E and A strings will be flat when fretted at the 12th fret while in tune on the 12th fret harmonic. Reset the intonation by moving those saddles forward. Once set your intonation will be a lot better in the long run. And as a side benefit your tuning will be more stable.
If you don't set your witness points, and set your intonation , the in-tuneness will change over time as the strings straighten out at the nut and saddles - your intonation will gradually get worse and worse during that time. And as the string straightens out it will go flat. But if you have set the witness points neither of those things will happen.
Next time you install a new set of strings, DO NOT set the witness points. Tune up and set the intonation. Get it as accurate as you can at the 12th fret.
Now set the witness points. Press the strings down at the saddles and at the nut. Retune (some or all of the strings will be flat). Then check the intonation. Probably at least the E and A strings will be flat when fretted at the 12th fret while in tune on the 12th fret harmonic. Reset the intonation by moving those saddles forward. Once set your intonation will be a lot better in the long run. And as a side benefit your tuning will be more stable.
If you don't set your witness points, and set your intonation , the in-tuneness will change over time as the strings straighten out at the nut and saddles - your intonation will gradually get worse and worse during that time. And as the string straightens out it will go flat. But if you have set the witness points neither of those things will happen.
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When we adjust the neck relief we need to adjust the intonation too, but what about the strings that have already set the WPs for the previous saddles position? Can you re-set the WPs in the same set of strings?
You set the witness points after you set the neck relief. Then later if you need to adjust the relief because it has drifted, you will be putting it back to the point where the intonation was correct. No need to adjust the intonation then.
Besides, the small adjustments you would need to make in relief would be an amount that would not significantly affect the intonation. But, yes you can reset the witness points again if necessary on the same set of strings. Unless there was a drastic change in the saddle location there will be no negative impact on the string.
I doubt there is any difference in terms of string slippage doing it the way you do or down through the hole in the post. In both cases there are two binding points that act as anchors. Down through the centre hole looks neater though IMO.
So far we have been talking about setting witness points, stretching strings and how this affects intonation. But now I am going to look at a fundamental problem about intonation. I came to write this because of a particular problem I had with a customer.
The customer was a long-time double bass player who had started playing electric a few years before I met him. He had just bought a rather high-end fretted electric bass and wanted it set up. I was happy to oblige.
When he got the bass back from me he was very happy with the way it played, but he was insistent that the intonation was off. That surprised me because I fuss over all the details of a setup and I couldn't imagine that I had goofed on the intonation.
The player told me that he was particularly sensitive to tuning irregularities, so I got out my strobe tuner and checked the intonation. It was as good as I could get it, but I fiddled anyway, ending up just where it had been. He seemed satisfied with my efforts and I sent him on his way with no charge.
A few days later he was complaining that there was a problem with the intonation again and that he was suspecting the bass was not well made. He had complained to the store where he bought the bass. The store insisted that there was nothing wrong with the bass, but he was insisting that his tech had done everything possible to intonate the bass but it was still playing out of tune. Sure enough I got a call from the store - they were not happy because they didn't think the bass was at fault. I had to explain to them that the fault wasn't with the bass - that the customer was hyper tuning-sensitive and he wasn't used to equal temperment. The store had no idea what I was talking about.
So here goes - I am going to try to explain why I couldn't satisfy the customer. I will start by saying that if you have an instrument that sounds the notes perfectly in the harmonic series it will sound wonderfully in tune with itself. However, the scale of A major will sound different than the scale of C major. It's not just a matter that they start at different pitches, it's that the intervals between the notes are different.
For a start, let's look at the interval of a major third from the root. In the Key of A the major third is C#. In the key of C major, the third is E. But in the harmonic series, also called "just temperment", they are not the same interval! If A is 440 cps, C# is 556.875 cps. C# is 1.266 times the frequency of A. But E (660 cps) is 1.249 times the frequency of C (528.596 cps). If the interval from A to C# sounds like it's in tune to you when playing in the key of A, the interval from C to E will sound flat when in the key of C. The two intervals differ by more than 18 cents, almost two tenths of a semitone.
This was addressed back in the 1700's by bringing forth a tuning system called "equal temperment" that had it's beginnings more than 100 years earlier. In it the octave was divided up into 12 equal parts, semitones. That gave all the intervals a fixed value - a great benefit to keyboards and fretted instruments, allowing them to be consistent from key to key. The compromise though meant that there was a degree of out-of-tuneness in every key.
That's what my customer was hearing. In order to be consistent from key to key, the frets are arranged in the equivalent of equal temperment. He was tuning using the harmonic series, or just temperment, which the instrument was not designed for. Consequently he found the intonation to be off. Had he used equal temperment in his tuning it would have sounded better, but not right. He hadn't had this problem with his double bass - being a non-fretted instrument he was compensating for out-of-tuneness by slightly shifting his finger position, something not possible on the fretted instrument. So the customer was right - the intonation was off, but intentionally so. Perhaps the best solution for him would be to play a fretless electric.
The customer was a long-time double bass player who had started playing electric a few years before I met him. He had just bought a rather high-end fretted electric bass and wanted it set up. I was happy to oblige.
When he got the bass back from me he was very happy with the way it played, but he was insistent that the intonation was off. That surprised me because I fuss over all the details of a setup and I couldn't imagine that I had goofed on the intonation.
The player told me that he was particularly sensitive to tuning irregularities, so I got out my strobe tuner and checked the intonation. It was as good as I could get it, but I fiddled anyway, ending up just where it had been. He seemed satisfied with my efforts and I sent him on his way with no charge.
A few days later he was complaining that there was a problem with the intonation again and that he was suspecting the bass was not well made. He had complained to the store where he bought the bass. The store insisted that there was nothing wrong with the bass, but he was insisting that his tech had done everything possible to intonate the bass but it was still playing out of tune. Sure enough I got a call from the store - they were not happy because they didn't think the bass was at fault. I had to explain to them that the fault wasn't with the bass - that the customer was hyper tuning-sensitive and he wasn't used to equal temperment. The store had no idea what I was talking about.
So here goes - I am going to try to explain why I couldn't satisfy the customer. I will start by saying that if you have an instrument that sounds the notes perfectly in the harmonic series it will sound wonderfully in tune with itself. However, the scale of A major will sound different than the scale of C major. It's not just a matter that they start at different pitches, it's that the intervals between the notes are different.
For a start, let's look at the interval of a major third from the root. In the Key of A the major third is C#. In the key of C major, the third is E. But in the harmonic series, also called "just temperment", they are not the same interval! If A is 440 cps, C# is 556.875 cps. C# is 1.266 times the frequency of A. But E (660 cps) is 1.249 times the frequency of C (528.596 cps). If the interval from A to C# sounds like it's in tune to you when playing in the key of A, the interval from C to E will sound flat when in the key of C. The two intervals differ by more than 18 cents, almost two tenths of a semitone.
This was addressed back in the 1700's by bringing forth a tuning system called "equal temperment" that had it's beginnings more than 100 years earlier. In it the octave was divided up into 12 equal parts, semitones. That gave all the intervals a fixed value - a great benefit to keyboards and fretted instruments, allowing them to be consistent from key to key. The compromise though meant that there was a degree of out-of-tuneness in every key.
That's what my customer was hearing. In order to be consistent from key to key, the frets are arranged in the equivalent of equal temperment. He was tuning using the harmonic series, or just temperment, which the instrument was not designed for. Consequently he found the intonation to be off. Had he used equal temperment in his tuning it would have sounded better, but not right. He hadn't had this problem with his double bass - being a non-fretted instrument he was compensating for out-of-tuneness by slightly shifting his finger position, something not possible on the fretted instrument. So the customer was right - the intonation was off, but intentionally so. Perhaps the best solution for him would be to play a fretless electric.
Just did a quick re-calc. I think it's actually around 13.4 cents. I guess the point is that the difference is significant enough for people with a digital tuner to notice, though they probably hear it too.
In simple terms, perfect fifths don’t beat. But if you stack perfect fifths all the way around you don’t come back to an octave of your original tone.
So we make fifths beat a little bit to get the octaves clean.
This is one of the reasons string quartets and a capella groups sound a little freakishly “in-tune”. They sing non-beating fifths.
So we make fifths beat a little bit to get the octaves clean.
This is one of the reasons string quartets and a capella groups sound a little freakishly “in-tune”. They sing non-beating fifths.
And one of the reasons why double bass and fretless players don't run into the problem.
In the harmonic series, the octave is not a simple matter of stacking perfect fifths. An octave is the sum of a perfect fifth and the inverse of a perfect fifth, which is a perfect fourth. That gives a true octave.
Turnaround,
I think you are making it more complicated than it actually is. An octave is simply 2x the frequency of the tone (ie A4=440 to A5=880, etc)
A perfect non-beating fifth is a ratio of 3:2, (440x3/2=E660).
But as I said, if you go A440,E660,B990,F#1485, etc.. all the way around the circle of fifths back to an A, you’ll be quite a bit off of an even multiple of 440.
Go ahead, use a calculator and check.
So, when we tune a piano (or fretted instrument) we let the fifths beat a little so our octaves can be clean and non beating.
Its hard to hear on low frequencies of a bass guitar but pretty obvious on a guitar and its why some chord fingerings just sound a little better than others. On a violin, it is very obvious and why string quartets typically hate playing with pianos. Lol
Obviously, if you’re singing or playing an unfretted instrument you don’t have to compensate and you can play all your fifths and fourths in a non-beating interval.
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Am I missing something. A4 is 440hz. E5 is 659.25hz. D#5 is 622.25hz. 220hz is A3. I don't understand your numbers
I think what @MVE explained was easier to conceptualize.
