I don't know about you, but I was just thankful there wasn't a jigsaw, drill or router in the video. I shudder to think of the potential carnage inflicted by this dimwit on that poor bass.
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Stringing, Tuning, Intonation and Witnesses
- Thread starter Turnaround
- Start date
Except a 4th from E is A#.
I also think you typed the 800 when you meant 880.
Edit: I think you are trying to say the following for frequency:
Root + fifth + fourth = octave
For A4
Root is A4 = 440
5th is E5 = 660
4th is D#5 = 622
A fifth is 1.5x the root. So naturally adding 0.5x the root gives the octave. However, 0.5x the root is the octave lower than the root. I don't understand where the 4th comes in.
I also think you typed the 800 when you meant 880.
Edit: I think you are trying to say the following for frequency:
Root + fifth + fourth = octave
For A4
Root is A4 = 440
5th is E5 = 660
4th is D#5 = 622
A fifth is 1.5x the root. So naturally adding 0.5x the root gives the octave. However, 0.5x the root is the octave lower than the root. I don't understand where the 4th comes in.
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Take the circle of fifths starting at A:
A E a B F# a Db Ab a Eb a Bb F a C G a D A
I included a lower case "a" for each octave. To go through the circle of fifths you go past 7 octaves to end back up on the starting note or 12 fifths.
If the first A is A1, you end on A8 whether by octaves or fifths.
A fifth is 1.5 times a root frequency.
F(n) = R x (1.5)^n
An octave is 2 times a root frequency
O(n) = R x (2)^n
F(12) should be the same as O(7)...
R x (1.5)^12 = R x (2)^7
R simplifies out and this solves for:
129.74 = 128
Either octaves or fifths have to be slightly off. Both cannot be perfect, though the error is very small. Especially when you consider a 6 string guitar only has 5 possible octaves of the E or a 4 string bass only has 4 possible octaves of the E.
A E a B F# a Db Ab a Eb a Bb F a C G a D A
I included a lower case "a" for each octave. To go through the circle of fifths you go past 7 octaves to end back up on the starting note or 12 fifths.
If the first A is A1, you end on A8 whether by octaves or fifths.
A fifth is 1.5 times a root frequency.
F(n) = R x (1.5)^n
An octave is 2 times a root frequency
O(n) = R x (2)^n
F(12) should be the same as O(7)...
R x (1.5)^12 = R x (2)^7
R simplifies out and this solves for:
129.74 = 128
Either octaves or fifths have to be slightly off. Both cannot be perfect, though the error is very small. Especially when you consider a 6 string guitar only has 5 possible octaves of the E or a 4 string bass only has 4 possible octaves of the E.
A perfect 4th is the same interval as an inverted 5th. A to E is a fifth. E to A is a fourth.
Piano tuning theory actually goes a step further than just equal temperament and compensates for the overtones of each string.
As the piano hammer strikes each string on a harmonic node, there are much more overtones than on a bass string or other typical stringed instrument.
Piano scales are compromised from their theoretical ideal simply due to size. An ideal scale would be like 30’ long.
So all those harmonic overtones are OUT OF TUNE with the fundamental. It is called inharmonicity. The smaller the piano, the louder and more out of tune those harmonics are toward the bottom and top of the scale. The harmonics are sharper than the fundamental at the bottom and flatter at the the top. So starting at about E5 on the high end, tuners have to “stretch” the octaves past perfectly in tune but not too far to start beating to help compensate those harmonics.
So, in addition to intentionally setting the strings “out of tune” to obtain an “equal temperament” tuners have to push them even more or less out of tune to balance those overtones and compensate for inharmonicity.
What does all this have to do with the OP?
Well, its very possible that the “out of tuneness” your DB playing customer was hearing might have been overtones if those were fresh round wounds on that electric bass and not necessarily a product of equal temperament.
As the piano hammer strikes each string on a harmonic node, there are much more overtones than on a bass string or other typical stringed instrument.
Piano scales are compromised from their theoretical ideal simply due to size. An ideal scale would be like 30’ long.
So all those harmonic overtones are OUT OF TUNE with the fundamental. It is called inharmonicity. The smaller the piano, the louder and more out of tune those harmonics are toward the bottom and top of the scale. The harmonics are sharper than the fundamental at the bottom and flatter at the the top. So starting at about E5 on the high end, tuners have to “stretch” the octaves past perfectly in tune but not too far to start beating to help compensate those harmonics.
So, in addition to intentionally setting the strings “out of tune” to obtain an “equal temperament” tuners have to push them even more or less out of tune to balance those overtones and compensate for inharmonicity.
What does all this have to do with the OP?
Well, its very possible that the “out of tuneness” your DB playing customer was hearing might have been overtones if those were fresh round wounds on that electric bass and not necessarily a product of equal temperament.
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How do you know if you've put a witness point in the speaking length of the string, and ruined the string?
My strings settled in long ago, but I've been tweaking my action, and therefore, relief and intonation many times. As a result, I've brought the saddles backwards and forwards by various amounts. I can't hear any changes from the initial sound, but how would a ruined string present itself? Buzzy?
Buzzy, won't intonate properly, overly dull - in any number of ways that just don't sound right. But if you aren't having any of those problems, it's not ruined.
I'm debating whether to change them now I've found a string height that I like. The trouble is, I have flatwounds, so it's kind of hard to tell if I've ruined the string, because they do only have brightness when new. That's when you can tell if the string is ruined. Flatwounds are expensive and I haven't had them on that long.
Only thing that's odd is that, when tuning, the pitch fluctuates sometimes. It could be pickups that are too high, however. My tuner isn't that great however. I've ordered a new one. Judgement...replace strings or not?
In my case it doesn’t matter - they are both the same. That’s because I use a light touch.
whereas i tend to bang on them a little. i'll tune to the attack, that's where most of the pitch recognition happens.
thing is you'd need a tuner "fast" enough to actually read that attack, which means a real analog strobe tuner. for me it's the sonic research turbo-tuner, nothing else comes close.
that's usually my first clue that they're not as good a musician as they think they are
real musicians know how to consciously or unconsciously push and pull the notes on their instrument to sound good in context and don't get hung up on 1 or 2 ¢ error margins.
as musician steve kimock puts it, good guitars don't play in tune, good guitar players do.
this is the reason short scale basses sound "tubby" and the reason why i personally don't like the sound of 5-string basses; the harmonics are just not as close to the fundamental as they are on regular basses within their more ideal pitch range.
that low B on 5-strings especially, even at 35" scale length it just has an inherently sour character, it's just too short for its thickness and tension.
Apart from my first two basses, which I haven't touched in years, I play short scales. I've never understood the tubby nature that people speak of. Can you explain? I'm curious because I haven't heard enough in-depth comparisons of short scales and long scales. I would try a comparison, but they both have different pickups (big overwound humbuckers Vs single coils)and different strings (really dead rounds Vs flatwounds).
