Sub work - how are you guys pricing your time?

[Jaycat]

I never play for money.

"It pays your way but it corrupts your soul," as the great man said.

This policy greatly clarifies what you really do or don't want to do.

 

[stringthrough]

$125 per show with a band I've done several sub gigs with, so prep/ song review time is just a couple of hours for me. I recently did a gig (one I was very interested in doing because I liked the music to be performed) for which I had to learn 18 tunes. For that one I got an equal share, same as the rest of the band, $250.

 

[fdeck]

One of my criteria for bands is whether they can make good use of subs. At least in the jazz world, bands have worked this out, and expectations tend to be reasonable. When they're not, it's almost always a sign of inexperience. Also, there's never enough money to pay anybody less than an equal split, unless it's a really big event.

 

[silky smoove]

For sub gigs these days, my minimum to even consider it is $250 per set with a two set minimum. If the material is super deep or massively difficult to learn I add an additional fee. If there it’s obscure or original material with no prepared or publicly available charts I add an additional fee. If I’m driving more than 50 miles roundtrip I add an additional fee. If I have to bring my own amp I add an additional fee. If they want backing vocals I add an additional fee. If I’m told less than a week out I add an additional fee. If I’m told less than two days out I add a steep additional fee. If I have to buy different wardrobe items the band I’m subbing for reimburses those costs, and I keep the wardrobe items. If I have to pay for my own meals the band I’m subbing for reimburses those costs.

This all sounds like a lot, right? I agree, but that’s what my time is worth and despite these potential barriers to entry I’ve not had any slowdown in my workload since I started doing it this way back in 2018.

 

[pfschim]

I sub a lot in my market. It's generally a 30-35 song set list and no rehearsal with most of the material being stuff that I already more-or-less know. Originals can be tricky ... if they're written tricky, but usually they are not IME.

I get $100min for a 3 set show ... OR a band split if it's greater than $100/man and I get that too when the money is there. I usually get some tip money too, but am never really sure it's a straight split, but I don't really care.

I get called back regularly, and have been asked to join a few bands after subbing, so whatever I'm doing it seems like it's working.

 

[Altitude]

I sub a lot in my market. It's generally a 30-35 song set list and no rehearsal with most of the material being stuff that I already more-or-less know. Originals can be tricky ... if they're written tricky, but usually they are not IME.

I get $100min for a 3 set show ... OR a band split if it's greater than $100/man and I get that too when the money is there. I usually get some tip money too, but am never really sure it's a straight split, but I don't really care.

I get called back regularly, and have been asked to join a few bands after subbing, so whatever I'm doing it seems like it's working.

This seems pretty normal to me and about what I get subbing in Denver.

Lot of posts in this thread by people saying what they would demand, but I bet not many of them are really getting that money.

 

[Bunk McNulty]

I only sit-in for my old band. I make whatever they make, and it's usually $130.

 

[Aussie Player]

I’ve been taking on more sub work lately and have noticed a massive range when it comes to how much a band is willing to pay you to sub vs. how much work it takes to get their set down.

So my question to you all is how you price your time when there is a fairly steep ask in terms of material to be learned? Especially when that material is either originals or covers that you can’t readily use in other gigs (eg real deep cuts of lesser known bands)

Some recent examples that I have been offered have included
1/ 34 song tribute band set (including some deep deep cuts I’ve never heard before), asking 2 rehearsals before the gig - $100
2/ 9 originals (no charts available so I’d need to transcribe) and 19 (fairly standard) covers, asking for 1 rehearsal - $100
3/ 60 song set for popular event band (standard covers), 3 consecutive gigs, no rehearsal needed - $250 per show ($750 total)

For me, only the 3rd one makes sense - since by the time I’d put the work in to learn and rehearse the other shows I’d probably end up making single digits per hour! (Note #2 and #3 would likely result in future work - #1 would not)

In my mind I’ve set a fee range depending on how much charting I’d have to do and how many rehearsals they want from me - but I worry I’d price myself out of the market if everyone else is willing to do 20 hours of work for $100.

What do you guys do?

Musicians have historically learned "business" long after learning their music craft, but business has to enter your musical career or you become a not for profit charity, unwittingly.

I'd base it on whether you know the songs firstly and whether you like the songs secondly, as it it harder to learn songs you are not warm to, especially if they are unfamiliar.

You already likely know that bands that discount with the hope of increases with successive bookings soon learn the foolishness of this thinking, so based on the info provided, scrap #1 and go with #2 at a higher rate and 3 because of the repeat business.

Also recommend having someone video your performances (even short clips) for future marketing.

$100 a gig is still bottom wrung. There has never been inflation in the music industry, only apparently with the istrument side of it. Knowing this, set the bar to suit you, ie

$100 if you know 80%+ (easy night)
$120 if you know less than 75%
1 or 2 rehearsals included, more, and the rate goes to $150. If you learn the material, it is right to expect the band already knows it, so rehearsals only need to cover the unfamiliar or new material for you. The extra money is earned in time and travel preparation.

Remember, THERE IS NO COMPETITION WHERE ANOTHER BASS PLAYER KNOWS EVERY SONG and is available. If there was, they would have called them.

Good luck and remember your musical satisfation is your motivation.

 

[KenSmithFan]

In my mind I’ve set a fee range depending on how much charting I’d have to do and how many rehearsals they want from me - but I worry I’d price myself out of the market if everyone else is willing to do 20 hours of work for $100.

What do you guys do?

If someone else is willing to do the gig adequately for $100 and you want $250, then you ARE pricing yourself out of the market. You get to set the fee you’ll play for, they get to set the fee they will pay.

It’s not complicated, from your perspective you decide how much you charge and how much time you’ll invest. Turn down the gigs that don’t meet your criteria.

From the band’s prospective they see who is available that will do an adequate job and how much they will need to pay.

One thing that always gets lost in these discussions is that playing isn’t ALWAYS about money. Some of us just like to play.

 

[KenSmithFan]

Lot of posts in this thread by people saying what they would demand, but I bet not many of them are really getting that money.

It’s the internet. Everyone is ten feet tall and bulletproof. And we’re all rich, good looking and married to supermodels. And we all make $250 an set plus transportation costs, plus strings, an amp and all of the blue M&Ms picked out of our candy dish.

I like TalkBass, but sometimes the outrageous bragging and outright lying gets to be too much. As my old man used to say, “I’m not saying you’re lying, but you’ve stretched the truth so far that no one can recognize it.”

 

[Altitude]

It’s the internet. Everyone is ten feet tall and bulletproof. And we’re all rich, good looking and married to supermodels. And we all make $250 an set plus transportation costs, plus strings, an amp and all of the blue M&Ms picked out of our candy dish.

I like TalkBass, but sometimes the outrageous bragging and outright lying gets to be too much. As my old man used to say, “I’m not saying you’re lying, but you’ve stretched the truth so far that no one can recognize it.”

The person claiming $250 per set is an old soul around here and an experienced player. I give him the benefit of the doubt but that claim strains credibility.

 

[DWBass]

Don't know about anyone else but for the last 4 years, the lowest I made was $150 (once or twice) but my average was $300 until recently when a booking agency took over booking at the Casino and they lowered the pay and took 10% for their troubles! Yet took a month to pay!

I just recently resigned from that band. I hooked up with a new cat and just did a gig for an event. Got paid $225. I don't claim high numbers but my days of low paying gigs are over. I have a good reputation in my area and cats know NOT to come to me with a low paying gig. I'm not the only one in my area who folks won't even bother calling because they can't afford them.

 

[john_g]

#3 in the OP for me would be the choice. At one point i was actively promoting myself as a fill in...then i did a bunch...and changed my mind. Bands only offered an equal cut, usually somewhere around $100-$150 at most. I told a couple bands I wanted more than an equal cut because of having to learn alot of songs in a very short time and i got ghosted. Just too much competition IMO.

 

[Jefenator]

I'd consider #1 or #2 if the vibe were mellow enough – and I needed the work.
Learning tunes ought to be fun and educational; I only begrudge it when the material is really hoakey.
I'll take the no-rehearsal option whenever possible. But I don't mind clogging up my schedule a bit more if the show will really benefit. When folks want to spend precious ensemble time figuring out parts & arrangements – and bickering over a bunch of $#!& no one is going to remember – I feel like I should be charging my lesson rate. (And then I remember: I don't do lessons...)

 

[Hawk620]

It would depend entirely on who asked me to sub, the material, how often they'll use me and if there are higher paying gigs down the road.

The minimum I'd take for a local 2 or 3 set gig is $100. If there's a lot of new material to work through and a rehearsal or a get together with the guitarist just to review it and the arrangement I'll ask for $150 minimum. If I'm gonna have to travel within 50-60 miles or so I'll ask for $200 to cover gas and my time traveling.

The exception might be doing a local blues jam where it all just show up, plug in, and play and whether or not I need to bring my own bass rig.

 

[KenSmithFan]

The person claiming $250 per set is an old soul around here and an experienced player. I give him the benefit of the doubt but that claim strains credibility.

I’ve been working with musicians and playing paying gigs for 55 years. I can tell you that the ratio of bragging to truth is about 10,000 to 1.

I’m done giving people the benefit of the doubt, but I applaud and envy your charitable nature.

 

[Fuzzbass]

Lot of posts in this thread by people saying what they would demand, but I bet not many of them are really getting that money.

You're correct that internet bluster is ubiquitous, but the on-demand pros in my area do receive that kind of money, and some here are on-demand pros. They work with upper-echelon bands that get higher pay and can afford higher rates for higher quality subs.

I've occasionally hired these pros when they were willing to settle for $150-$200. On one occasion it was a greater share than the band was making, and I paid the extra out of my own pocket because my bandmates at the time were cheapskate knuckleheads who didn't understand why anyone should get more than an equal share. I probably should have said "if you're not willing to take a pay cut for a good sub then you'd better be ready to get zero pay from a cancellation", but I didn't want to test the limits of their stupidity.

 

[KenSmithFan]

I probably should have said "if you're not willing to take a pay cut for a good sub then you'd better be ready to get zero pay from a cancellation", but I didn't want to test the limits of their stupidity.

You’re a wise man. Always remember, the difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits!

I’m at the point where I’m more concerned about putting on a good show than making the maximum dollar amount possible.

 

[pepj]

Its not straight forward..you usually get offered the split but split of the lower level rate or..?

If I want to do it, the money is secondary but by the same token, 90% of subs are too much work for the money, imv or the band set up isn't appealing.

You can get a call, think it might be fun, thanks for asking etc as its a kind of recognition, and then when you really think it through, and wish you said no.

I'm not interested in doing them anyway, but saying that, I have 2 in the next 2 weeks. One I regret saying yes to, and the other one should be fine.
The issue is there is a world of difference between the ability of the two units.
(I asked one of the above gigs if the band could play the tracks and they said the regular band is definitely tight. On hearing their live work on video, I don't agree)

 

[Groove Doctor]

I don’t join a band without clear indication of rules for subs, pay rate, rehearsals, etc.

Band Leaders role is to find a sub, or have a list of sub players to step up for the gig.

Although not required, I have 1-2 bass buddies that get my set list & charts when I join in case I ever need an emergency backup. We share fill in gigs with each other so no issues.