You're in very good company. I heard that Charlie Haden had severe back problems caused by all his time on the upright. Don't know if that's true, but it's believable.
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Double Bass Surviving a 3 hour gig?
- Thread starter Stuart.C
- Start date
You're in very good company. I heard that Charlie Haden had severe back problems caused by all his time on the upright. Don't know if that's true, but it's believable.
I'm with Jake on the forearms. Yoga plank position, for as long as you can support your body, with the fingers spread wide on both hands is great for the hands, forearms, and shoulders.
Yay so I just survived a 3 hour gig.
One word: Stool. I had no left arm issues, I got a little cramping in my right when I got sloppy but I corrected for it.
I also did lots of stretching, drank lots of water and basically treated my day as if I was about to run a marathon.
In rehearsal I tried to play the pumping root fifth stuff with proper technique and realized it just doesn't work, barring actually feels much better.
With the stool I can get tones of arm weight and really focus on playing with minimal effort.
One word: Stool. I had no left arm issues, I got a little cramping in my right when I got sloppy but I corrected for it.
I also did lots of stretching, drank lots of water and basically treated my day as if I was about to run a marathon.
In rehearsal I tried to play the pumping root fifth stuff with proper technique and realized it just doesn't work, barring actually feels much better.
With the stool I can get tones of arm weight and really focus on playing with minimal effort.
I may have missed this but somebody did mention lower the height and get softer gauge strings right?
Yeah I realized my current setup is for classical playing.
No adjusters on the bridge 7mm G, 10mm E heights, but with 3mm FB scoop on the G string. I am using Zyex lights which are pretty low tension. My next investment is getting adjusters installed and making the finger board a little straighter. Then a new pick-up ...
Jake deVilliers
Commercial User
- May 24, 2006
- 6,349
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- Owner of The Bass Spa, String Repairman at Long & McQuade Vancouver
Way too much camber! You need adjusters and a fingerboard dress.
I have no idea what you guys are talking about. I play a 3 hr gig regularly and never had an single issue. Just came back from one this afternoon.
I will say that I've noticed that if I put the bass up as high as most people do, I will hurt my wrist. The nut is about eyebrow level and I make sure my wrist is as aligned with my forearm as much as possible. I work at a computer/seated at a desk all day as well. Alignment to me is critical.
I would suggest talking to someone who does Alexander Technique and have them help you with your form so that it's more ergonomic. Another thing is that I learn how to shift my technique a little bit so that maybe every chorus or so I'm playing the same notes with a slightly different technique and muscle group. Being able to shift stress to other areas of the body helps with stamina issues. The bass generally leans into me but I will shift around as needed. Too much static technique over long periods of time probably doesn't help with preventing RSI.
I will say that I've noticed that if I put the bass up as high as most people do, I will hurt my wrist. The nut is about eyebrow level and I make sure my wrist is as aligned with my forearm as much as possible. I work at a computer/seated at a desk all day as well. Alignment to me is critical.
I would suggest talking to someone who does Alexander Technique and have them help you with your form so that it's more ergonomic. Another thing is that I learn how to shift my technique a little bit so that maybe every chorus or so I'm playing the same notes with a slightly different technique and muscle group. Being able to shift stress to other areas of the body helps with stamina issues. The bass generally leans into me but I will shift around as needed. Too much static technique over long periods of time probably doesn't help with preventing RSI.
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Then you obviously like you said, you have your bass setup with a lot "lower action" and probably the soundpost is set correctly, along with bridge which allows the string to be "looser" and not tight.. and possibly a few other things that allow to easily play longer gigs without problems..
I just played at a jamsession a few nights ago and the bass was setup so that I was pulling like I normally do but then when things got into the heat of it, I got blisters because it was not loud enough and the bass was strings were so tight. as a result, I tried to play harder and louder.. I was just sitting-in, If I had to play that for 3 hours, I would have either broke my hand or the bass.. whichever first..
Setup is critical for so many reasons.. and I see all these people saying "practice more" or "your technique" this and that..
meanwhile, I'd absolutely die to see these People come play a poorly setup high action bass for 3 hours so I can tell them "practice more" when they have blood coming from there fingers from pulling too hard or tendinitis in their wrists/fingers
Nope, I didn't say anything about string height- I was referring to hurting my left wrist if the endpin was set too high.
I use Garbos with a gut G. No idea about how high the strings are but my index finger slips pretty easily underneath the E. I do go after strings just so I can raise them as high as I can handle it for any gig. I'd go no amp if the people I was with didn't play so loud.
The other side of it is that just because you get loud doesn't mean you should come up in volume. Other people should go down, or simply that you guys all started way too loud. In those situations, it's not worth sacrificing my fingers for blisters, esp just to keep up in a jam session. In my gigs, I set my amp to the point where it's barely audible since I'm just after a little reinforcement. I dont' try to compete and try for the best intonation since that usually is the best at cutting through the mud, as is recommended on this forum from many experienced players.
Everything is important, setup, technique, knowing your gear, knowing how to adjust to someone elses bass, etc. Everything has to come into balance for it to work. Technique is pretty huge tho. Esp if you pull away from the strings instead of pushing through. That's always been insta-blister for me. When I watch other people play it makes me cringe as to how much suffering they end up with. When things get going and the adrenaline starts to flow, the more important thing I try to do is keep cool and not 'dig in' harder. Relaxation is key.
Check out how Mingus plays. His whole body is into it and he 'drives' through the string, not plucking it. He plays it like an athlete.
I use Garbos with a gut G. No idea about how high the strings are but my index finger slips pretty easily underneath the E. I do go after strings just so I can raise them as high as I can handle it for any gig. I'd go no amp if the people I was with didn't play so loud.
The other side of it is that just because you get loud doesn't mean you should come up in volume. Other people should go down, or simply that you guys all started way too loud. In those situations, it's not worth sacrificing my fingers for blisters, esp just to keep up in a jam session. In my gigs, I set my amp to the point where it's barely audible since I'm just after a little reinforcement. I dont' try to compete and try for the best intonation since that usually is the best at cutting through the mud, as is recommended on this forum from many experienced players.
Everything is important, setup, technique, knowing your gear, knowing how to adjust to someone elses bass, etc. Everything has to come into balance for it to work. Technique is pretty huge tho. Esp if you pull away from the strings instead of pushing through. That's always been insta-blister for me. When I watch other people play it makes me cringe as to how much suffering they end up with. When things get going and the adrenaline starts to flow, the more important thing I try to do is keep cool and not 'dig in' harder. Relaxation is key.
Check out how Mingus plays. His whole body is into it and he 'drives' through the string, not plucking it. He plays it like an athlete.
I don't like to say that I agree here, but this is true.
I'm guessing that even if you have knowledge of "proper technique", going that route won't help to heal this. A tremendous amount of energy is built up as muscle tension and inertia in the closed fingering requirements of lots of the most simple root music bass parts. Not to mention trying to be heard in adverse sound situations, bad setup, ect. This can all lead to muscle groups gradually becoming contracted over time, to the breaking/locking point. Your muscle groups will have a memory of being contracted, getting shorter and shorter, and stay there until you give it a long term rest. And get some proper body work to restore the original length of your muscles from the time before you began injuring them. At this point your brain has forgotten how far your muscles used to be able stretch. Simply stretching before the gig won't really help, the muscles just contract back like a rubber band does when you are finished stretching. Forcing stretches will certainly compound your present level of injuries.
It isn't unusual for highly known professional bassists to need to take a break in their career because of this. Nobody advertises it in their interviews.
I hope you can work through this problem. It is completely possible imho, but in the end it's up to you to educate yourself and find the right way. Nobody knows your body and how it functions better than you do. Don't give up. My only real advice would be, it's impossible for any practitioner of any method to tell you exactly what your the problem is, they don't live in your body 24/7. There is no silver bullet cure for motor movement injuries.
Pain is your friend right now...pain is telling you to please stop beating your body and get some help away from the instrument.
Thank you every one. In my neck of the woods double bass is a very lonely instrument, in that there is basically no one I can talk to about this kinda stuff. I also play guitar and there are several guitar shops around where they love talking guitar, but it's not the same for upright. (I had classical teachers but they don't really understand how to pump root fives for 3 hours)
Anyway it's very nice to have a community ...
I found for long shows if I sit on a stool and really focus on economy of movement I had no issues and felt like I could keep going.
But I also leaned my current setup is not ideal for this type of playing, strings are too high and camber too deep.
So next Wed I am going to do something I should have done a long time ago... go get a proper setup and adjusters installed.
I don't think I would have came to this conclusion with out the help of every one here, I kept thinking I needed new strings, or a new way of playing but neglected the fact that I have never taken my bass for a proper setup.
Thanks
As a distantly related side note, check out the book Pain Free by Pete Egoscue. I'm not saying it is the answer to your current problem, as that has already been addressed in the thread. However, everything's connected, right?
Check out some of the Egoscue links on youtube.
Just curious, but do you slap? I find nothing wrong with your current string height, but then I play a similar height with solo strings tuned down to standard.
Check out some of the Egoscue links on youtube.
Just curious, but do you slap? I find nothing wrong with your current string height, but then I play a similar height with solo strings tuned down to standard.
It's funny, I met a pretty well known touring bluegrass musician 40+ years ago and she told me she used solo strings tuned down. She had a great sound. Made no sense to me back then, but I've come to understand that was a wise musical choice for many reasons.
I don't slap, I think my string height would be fine if my FB wasn't scooped so deep (3mm on G string). So it means my string height remains high pretty much up to third position.
I am taking it in next week to see what they can do.
I am taking it in next week to see what they can do.
To self-massage the muscles locking up:
while sitting at a table slowly roll a tennis ball between your arm and table top. Work along the entire forearm (palm-side) daily, a few minutes each side.
+1 to setup, stool, stretching, fluid technique, lessons, plus Alexander Technique if it still persists.
while sitting at a table slowly roll a tennis ball between your arm and table top. Work along the entire forearm (palm-side) daily, a few minutes each side.
+1 to setup, stool, stretching, fluid technique, lessons, plus Alexander Technique if it still persists.
@Groove Doctor :: You say "palm side", but will the tennis ball method work on the flip-side? I've got an old injury that flares up when over practicing that's on the back-of-hand side of my forearm.
At any rate, I'll give it a try. The rolling ball method has worked well for my wife's feet and for my father's feet (plantar fasciitis).
At any rate, I'll give it a try. The rolling ball method has worked well for my wife's feet and for my father's feet (plantar fasciitis).
One thing that no one has mentioned yet, which kinda mystifies me...
Breathe.
As our cells burn ATP, the byproducts of that chemical reaction include lactic acid, which is the cause of the burning you feel after heavy exertion.
The lactic acid is literally breaking down the muscle fibers. Lack of oxygen accelerates the production of lactic acid, and accelerates the damage.
Saturate your system with oxygen. I don't always remember to breathe when I'm really into the music.
Breathe.
As our cells burn ATP, the byproducts of that chemical reaction include lactic acid, which is the cause of the burning you feel after heavy exertion.
The lactic acid is literally breaking down the muscle fibers. Lack of oxygen accelerates the production of lactic acid, and accelerates the damage.
Saturate your system with oxygen. I don't always remember to breathe when I'm really into the music.
