Double Bass Surviving a 3 hour gig?

[Stuart.C]

I am sure this question has been asked, but I'd like to see if anyone shares my same problem.
My band plays a mix of old blues / jazz and bluegrass which amounts to a lot of root fifths mostly on E, and A strings. (or at least that's how I think it sounds best)

We are often booked for 3 or even 4 hours shows. which I never really survive. I usually sit out the last 2 songs. Because my hands fail.

What happens is my middle and index fingers involuntarily curl into my palm. My forearm gets a muscle spasm, and basically I am stopped dead mid song. My band understands and know I am out for the night. I takes up to 10-20 seconds before I can move my fingers.

I can handle jams in general because they are much more laid back. But shows are many songs back to back and I play with more vigor in general.

I have tried upping calcium in-take also drinking lots of water. We play maybe 2 shows a month and maybe if this was my full time thing I could last longer?

Anybody share this experience? have any tips to keep up blue grass upbeat energy for 3-4 hours?

Thanks

 

[jasonrp]

Same problem here. Get a stretching routine going, it's helped me quite a bit just stretching my hands, fingers, and tendons just a few minutes a day. Also, any song that you can rest on, take full advantage (open strings with mutes and such) Tylenol for arthritis an hour before the show too.

 

[Tom Lane]

I've suffered hand cramps before and play almost exclusively 3 and 4 hour gigs because I just don't want to lug my stuff to only have to stop after I get warmed up. Stretching and lots of rest and water is good advice, IMO, but I also suspect that you're pressing too hard with your fingers. Assuming you're practicing for 3 or 4 hours at least a couple of times a week, so that you have the stamina to play a 4 hour gig, I found leveraging my arm weight and no longer squeezing the fingerboard eliminated any hand exhaustion.

 

[s2bs2]

Topricin is a good muscle/nerve topical pain relief and healing cream that has worked wonders for me, as well as massage. I lean up against a wall or on the floor and roll my forearms over a tennis or baseball. Sounds hilarious, but it works. We play some real fast numbers that had my hands curling up too.

 

[SAlcott]

I am sure this question has been asked, but I'd like to see if anyone shares my same problem.
My band plays a mix of old blues / jazz and bluegrass which amounts to a lot of root fifths mostly on E, and A strings. (or at least that's how I think it sounds best)

We are often booked for 3 or even 4 hours shows. which I never really survive. I usually sit out the last 2 songs. Because my hands fail.

What happens is my middle and index fingers involuntarily curl into my palm. My forearm gets a muscle spasm, and basically I am stopped dead mid song. My band understands and know I am out for the night. I takes up to 10-20 seconds before I can move my fingers.

I can handle jams in general because they are much more laid back. But shows are many songs back to back and I play with more vigor in general.

I have tried upping calcium in-take also drinking lots of water. We play maybe 2 shows a month and maybe if this was my full time thing I could last longer?

Anybody share this experience? have any tips to keep up blue grass upbeat energy for 3-4 hours?

Thanks

I think you're on the verge of a trigger finger injury, if not already there. Which hand? Is your bass hard to play? What's the setup like? What strings? Do you play with proper left hand technique?

 

[Stuart.C]

Wow! thanks everybody this is great. I will definitely look into those suggestions; It's nice to know I am not alone.

I think you're on the verge of a trigger finger injury, if not already there. Which hand? Is your bass hard to play? What's the setup like? What strings? Do you play with proper left hand technique?

After 3 hours it can happen interchangeably between both hands. I don't think my bass is hard to play. I used to have helicores that chewed up my fingers. I changed to zyex light, that are much softer; no more blisters. (though today I put on jazzacatos, even lower tension and still great sound but thats a different post).

Proper technique is way out the window on a bunch of songs. Actually I notice the more jazzy songs where I "get" to play with proper technique are the easiest. I just don't know how to play repetitive root, fives up tempo "properly". I end up just clamping my whole hand almost like a bar chord. I'll see if I can keep a good hand shape during the next practice, but I suspect it will be worse, it's reason I play like that in the first place?

Thanks again everyone.

 

[SAlcott]

Wow! thanks everybody this is great. I will definitely look into those suggestions; It's nice to know I am not alone.



After 3 hours it can happen interchangeably between both hands. I don't think my bass is hard to play. I used to have helicores that chewed up my fingers. I changed to zyex light, that are much softer; no more blisters. (though today I put on jazzacatos, even lower tension and still great sound but thats a different post).

Proper technique is way out the window on a bunch of songs. Actually I notice the more jazzy songs where I "get" to play with proper technique are the easiest. I just don't know how to play repetitive root, fives up tempo "properly". I end up just clamping my whole hand almost like a bar chord. I'll see if I can keep a good hand shape during the next practice, but I suspect it will be worse, it's reason I play like that in the first place?

Thanks again everyone.

How high do you set your endpin? The nut should be roughly at the bevel of your eyebrows in playing position-almost every bluegrass player I see has the bass way too high. You might want to look into some lessons as well-a trained player can spot a lot of things you cam do to fix the bad habits you've developed that are causing your problems. I've been playing 50 years and still have a lesson every six weeks or so just to keep me on the right path.

 

[brianrost]

Stretch, stretch, stretch...when I first started gigging I had trouble getting through the night until Ed Friedland showed me some stretching exercises which I did religiously for a few years. I still do them sometimes, but regular playing is enough to keep me in shape now.

 

[pnchad]

Oh boy - please see someone right away & take a long break from the instrument until you get a handle on it

Take it from someone who can't play at all anymore but looking for my solutions

Played through pain too many times

 

[Stuart.C]

Stretch, stretch, stretch...when I first started gigging I had trouble getting through the night until Ed Friedland showed me some stretching exercises which I did religiously for a few years. I still do them sometimes, but regular playing is enough to keep me in shape now.

Can you describe the stretches you do? I do one where I press my palms together like praying then slowly rotate until my finger tips are pointing down. I would love to know your routine.

How high do you set your endpin?

I have spent a fair bit of time working on this. I try to get enough angle to utilize arm weight, but not too far so my right hand does not reach too far. The nut lands in my fore head region. I was originally trained in classical and never had any issues playing in the orchestra I think the only time my technique got sloppy like bluegrass was playing Boléro. I'd love to take some lessons, just don't know anyone who teaches a bluegrass, jazz style around here.
The thing is I can make it through 2 hour shows no problem. I just hit a wall at 3 hours, almost always the last 2 songs of the third set. Mostly it's not a big deal cause it's the end anyway but I wish I could do it, and also I don't want to injure myself.

 

[SAlcott]

Bass is bass; left hand technique is left hand technique. Style is irrelevant. Based on my experience and that of others, you've already injured your hand-the question is what to do about it. I'd see a hand specialist pronto.

 

[Tom Lane]

Bass is bass; left hand technique is left hand technique. Style is irrelevant. Based on my experience and that of others, you've already injured your hand-the question is what to do about it. I'd see a hand specialist pronto.

Couldn't disagree more. Genre of music is completely relevant because different styles demand different playing styles. I think the OP points that out in spades because he's trained in classical but having difficulty with bluegrass. Granted, good technique is good technique until it interferes with what you NEED to play and then it's poor technique.

 

[SAlcott]

Good technique won't interfere with anything. Bad technique can cripple you.

 

[Tom Lane]

Good technique won't interfere with anything. Bad technique can cripple you.

Bad technique can cripple you, I agree with, but, the world has moved forward; different types of strings, lower action, all of these things have changed how educated bassists define "good technique".

 

[Carl Hillman]

I am sure this question has been asked, but I'd like to see if anyone shares my same problem.
My band plays a mix of old blues / jazz and bluegrass which amounts to a lot of root fifths mostly on E, and A strings. (or at least that's how I think it sounds best)

We are often booked for 3 or even 4 hours shows. which I never really survive. I usually sit out the last 2 songs. Because my hands fail.

What happens is my middle and index fingers involuntarily curl into my palm. My forearm gets a muscle spasm, and basically I am stopped dead mid song. My band understands and know I am out for the night. I takes up to 10-20 seconds before I can move my fingers.

I can handle jams in general because they are much more laid back. But shows are many songs back to back and I play with more vigor in general.

I have tried upping calcium in-take also drinking lots of water. We play maybe 2 shows a month and maybe if this was my full time thing I could last longer?

Anybody share this experience? have any tips to keep up blue grass upbeat energy for 3-4 hours?

Thanks

Lower your bridge if possible. Stretch before and after playing. Make sure your fingers stay curved and don't collapse. Don't press harder with the left hand than is necessary to stop the string. If you feel your hand cramping from strictly using the "claw", substitute your second finger for the first and fourth at times. Inform your band mates that you need a few seconds in between songs to shake out your hand and get some fresh blood into it. It never hurts to have whoever is fronting the band to actually talk a little bit in between tunes. You're a band, not a jukebox.

 

[old spice]

In addition to above:
Try gut strings.
Play every day.
Get the set list arranged to vary the rhythms and tempi. Insist.
Don't play the blues and jazz in 2.
You are allowed to play melody even in bluegrass. Every bit of melody you use, even if only one quarter note outside the two beat feel, is a rest from the repetitive thing. You can and should be using scalar and chromatic lines up and down in your movement from one chord to the next. You're not playing guitar and don't have to do that I-V motif constantly. You can also start lines from upper chord tones headed to roots.
Change registers, use the whole bass. Get off E and A, for sure. Move around on the instrument.
Pace yourself.
Good luck.

 

[Jay Corwin]

First, if you do have an injury - might want to see the doctor.

I'm going to second what others have said here given my own experience with RS injury - stretch and hydrate. The only thing that I might add is some warm up exercises to loosen up the rotator cuff/shoulder area. I'm talking about exercises that take about 5 minutes before you play - nothing taxing. Maybe stretch in between sets too.

I completely understand what you are saying about the root-five pumping wearing you out. There are still certain keys playing bluegrass that tire me out. However I think that this is where proper technique could benefit you (if you aren't already injured). The hand position alone may not be the root of your problem given all of the mechanics involved.

In any event, don't play until you can't play no'mo. Address the issue now so you can continue playing in the future.

 

[Stuart.C]

. You're a band, not a jukebox.

Ha ha that's exactly how I feel. All the long gigs are at noisy bars. Where the crowd tends to respond more to up tempo root fifth stuff. We stopped bothering to talk between songs. The only break is tuning the banjo.

Try gut strings

Yeah I actually just changed to presto jazzicatos, nylon on steel, less tension then zyex lights, but they still have nice thump and sustain. So far (1 day) they are the best low tension string that don't feel like a big compromise on sound.
Saving up for guts. And yeah I do melody and walks to break up the root fifth stuff too, but a bunch of songs like "corn bread and butter beans" just need a driving beat, But I am going to start playing these as much open as I can. I like the sound of the G on the E string but at the end of the day I don't think anyone will notice.

How high do you set your endpin?

It's good that you mentioned this. When this first started happening I started raising it in an effort to utilize arm weight, but after practicing last night thinking about this, I think that over the course of playing the bass moves in closer to me and the extra height for angle just makes it too high. With the orchestra I used a stool and never had to worry about this. going try the next few rehearsals with it set a bit lower.

warm up exercises to loosen up the rotator cuff/shoulder area

I think this is something that I have been neglecting. This past Saturday I just started playing after a 2 hour drive, no stretching at all.

Does anyone know of a post or any info on a stretching / warm up routine for DB?

Thanks again everyone.

 

[Tom Lane]

Ha ha that's exactly how I feel. All the long gigs are at noisy bars. Where the crowd tends to respond more to up tempo root fifth stuff. We stopped bothering to talk between songs. The only break is tuning the banjo.


Yeah I actually just changed to presto jazzicatos, nylon on steel, less tension then zyex lights, but they still have nice thump and sustain. So far (1 day) they are the best low tension string that don't feel like a big compromise on sound.
Saving up for guts. And yeah I do melody and walks to break up the root fifth stuff too, but a bunch of songs like "corn bread and butter beans" just need a driving beat, But I am going to start playing these as much open as I can. I like the sound of the G on the E string but at the end of the day I don't think anyone will notice.


It's good that you mentioned this. When this first started happening I started raising it in an effort to utilize arm weight, but after practicing last night thinking about this, I think that over the course of playing the bass moves in closer to me and the extra height for angle just makes it too high. With the orchestra I used a stool and never had to worry about this. going try the next few rehearsals with it set a bit lower.



I think this is something that I have been neglecting. This past Saturday I just started playing after a 2 hour drive, no stretching at all.

Does anyone know of a post or any info on a stretching / warm up routine for DB?

Thanks again everyone.

Wait, banjos are tuned?

Seriously, here's the exercises I use. They took care of my tendonitis.

 

[Stuart.C]

Wait, banjos are tuned?

Ha ha at least the for first few bars.

Thanks, I work on computers all day, I am going to try those stretches daily.

Also sevenyearsdown sent a link on Pendulum exercises that look good for loosening the arm and shoulders.

I am amazed how much I over looked the athleticism of playing DB until it hurt me.