Double Bass Surviving a 3 hour gig?

[Feral Feline]

Yup, will do.

I'll try that breathing thing the KungfuSheriff mentioned, too.

 

[gerry grable]

I can only guess that Bluegrass style bass (slap bass ?) is more strenuous than the Jazz style as seen in the Mingus clip which is exactly the way I play, but I have to shake my head and smile at the title of this thread: 3 hours? I come from a time ( as did Mingus) where 5 to 6 hour gigs, 5 or 6 days a week were the norm, and this with gut strings and no amplification. You just grit your teeth and played through the blisters. Eventually the pain went away and the work became fun. I remember I often heard, "The bass should be felt, not heard." Yeah, right.

 

[MR PC]

Yeah, when I was in the first grade we used to walk 5 miles uphill to school in the snow. Barefoot, and no Breakfast either!

 

[gerry grable]

Yeah, when I was in the first grade we used to walk 5 miles uphill to school in the snow. Barefoot, and no Breakfast either!

You got me pegged, PC.
I just sit around here in rural PA, on my back steps, sippin' Metamucil and making poopie up on my iPad.

 

[gerry grable]

You got me pegged, PC.
I just sit around here in rural PA, on my back steps, sippin' Metamucil and making poopie up on my iPad.

P.S. I've never used the word "poopie" in my life!

 

[MR PC]

People, people who need people, are the luckiest poopies in the world. What vintage is that brew, gerry? French or Home?

 

[gerry grable]

People, people who need people, are the luckiest poopies in the world. What vintage is that brew, gerry? French or Home?

I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. The Talk Bass spell-check changed it from my original "obscene" word which I didn't know was verboten. But keep it up. You may have a real future as a lyricist especially with today's music

 

[MR PC]

Well Jerry, I was just quoting the Streisand lyric, and seasoning it to taste..after visiting my 100 year old mother in law in assisted living where all the canned music is that kind of drivel, it's just some comic relief.

But seriously, I think the last thing the OP might need to do is just power through pain issues, and be asked to look at Mingus doing just that. A person can have playing related pain issues, still execute perfect technique, power through pain, and turn an injury that could of been healed into a chronic health problem. That's my point.

 

[gerry grable]

Well Jerry, I was just quoting the Streisand lyric, and seasoning it to taste..after visiting my 100 year old mother in law in assisted living where all the canned music is that kind of drivel, it's just some comic relief.

But seriously, I think the last thing the OP might need to do is just power through pain issues, and be asked to look at Mingus doing just that. A person can have playing related pain issues, still execute perfect technique, power through pain, and turn an injury that could of been healed into a chronic health problem. That's my point.

I remember playing a session in the Village in the 60's. I'd get about 20 bucks and free beer. They were great since you never knew who would show up. Anyway, one of my heroes, Ahmad Abdul Malik, sat in for a couple of tunes and I got a chance to talk with him. I remember asking him why, when he got a chance for an extended solo , on my favorite Monk album-- Live at the Five Spot w/ Johnny Griffen-- did he just walk? He answered without hesitation: "After 50 choruses of saxophone? I was getting tired and my hands were sore." Coincidentally, a little later, Dave Izenzon also sat in. I remember not being particularly impressed. I was brave--but dumb as a stump in those days

Sorry for taking space here, Bluegrass guys. I (or you) can delete these posts if you want.

 

[Biggbass]

OP - you need to stretch before the first set and in the breaks, and take some potassium tablets
and hydrate before the gig. this time of year, when it's hot, that's very important to remember.

 

[ctrlzjones]

[...] I dont' try to compete and try for the best intonation since that usually is the best at cutting through the mud, as is recommended on this forum from many experienced players.
[...] the more important thing I try to do is keep cool and not 'dig in' harder. Relaxation is key.
[...] Check out how Mingus plays. His whole body is into it and he 'drives' through the string, not plucking it. He plays it like an athlete.

Yes, perfect statement. Playing 'harder' does not equal 'louder' ...
The key is economic behaviour: find out where the energy is lost (we all know from physics that energy is never lost but only transformed, your body gets sick when too much pressure fed back into the system).
Learn to separate the applied strength of the left and right hand. Pressing the string down harder with the left hand does not have any effect at all (instead it goes directly back to the body and causes damage); and the right hand should get the strings into an up/down movement, that is not a left/right movement (the one does not make the the top of your bass move, trespassing through the bridge ...). But using 'arm weight' (the chicken-thingie) helps to embrace gravitational forces ...

Never played slap, though, but I am still assuming that slap also is an up/down exercise.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

FWIW: I've been doing slap more and more, but in Milt Hinton's style, not the regular rockabilly type. I've found that with a more physical approach that slap requires, it's even more important to economize even further. Any wasted motion/energy will take it's toll even faster than if you played pizz only.

 

[BobKay]

Yes, perfect statement. Playing 'harder' does not equal 'louder' ...
The key is economic behaviour: find out where the energy is lost (we all know from physics that energy is never lost but only transformed, your body gets sick when too much pressure fed back into the system).
Learn to separate the applied strength of the left and right hand. Pressing the string down harder with the left hand does not have any effect at all (instead it goes directly back to the body and causes damage); and the right hand should get the strings into an up/down movement, that is not a left/right movement (the one does not make the the top of your bass move, trespassing through the bridge ...). But using 'arm weight' (the chicken-thingie) helps to embrace gravitational forces ...

Never played slap, though, but I am still assuming that slap also is an up/down exercise.

I'm confused by your "up/down" recommendation. Are you suggesting that pulling the string parallel to the face of the board is wrong?

 

[Groove Doctor]

I think the last thing the OP might need to do is just power through pain issues, and be asked to look at Mingus doing just that. A person can have playing related pain issues, still execute perfect technique, power through pain, and turn an injury that could of been healed into a chronic health problem. That's my point.

+1,000,000. Very wise words.

I've found that with a more physical approach that slap requires, it's even more important to economize even further. Any wasted motion/energy will take it's toll even faster than if you played pizz only.

When you see yourself as an elite athlete, you'll care for yourself much more.

Optimal performance is achieved thru greater efficiently, not through increased effort.

 

[SAlcott]

You're in very good company. I heard that Charlie Haden had severe back problems caused by all his time on the upright. Don't know if that's true, but it's believable.

Charlie Haden made beautiful music using unorthodox/appalling (choose your own word) technique. I got pain just watching him.

 

[okcrum]

Instead of drinking (insert favorite gig beverage here) try drinking something with electrolytes in it during the gig (Powerade for example). And eat your bananas!!! Cramping can happen even with chops if you get dehydrated. Never forget the athletic element of playing DB.

 

[J. Montgomery]

Having played in a bluegrass band, I feel you pain. Though any repetitive bass part is exhausting, and prone to setting you up for cramps. Hello, 10 minute Cantaloupe Island jam in F . . . ugh.

I agree with the earlier suggestion to practice relaxing while you're playing. Focusing on your breathing is a good way to begin. Once you're relaxed, you can find a comfortable level of attack and volume that is sustainable.

If the rest of the band drowns you out, don't fight it; you'll always lose.

Coming from a jazz background, I walk more than most bluegrass bassists. That does offer a chance to break repetitive figures and move your left hand a little bit.

 

[ctrlzjones]

I'm confused by your "up/down" recommendation. Are you suggesting that pulling the string parallel to the face of the board is wrong?

I have just tried that out and proved myself wrong.

It is the other way around: the sideways motion of the string produces a fuller sound, up/and down is clearly thinner ... Funny. What I said is true for the guitar (where I come from), on bass it is not. It still seems a bit counterintuitive but maybe there is a physics wizard on board able to explain what is happening. It must have something to do with the vibrational traducing of the bridge ...

Thank you.

 

[jbasedig]

In 1995 I was near the point of quitting, I had so much pain in in my left hand. I decided to give on last shot. I moved to Chicago and took lessons with the amazing Invalid Link Removed. Lessons with him were the only reason I stayed at DePaul. Now, what he showed me was not easy, it took a lot of time, but it worked. Plus, if I had a gig.. it was " do whatever it takes to get through the gig" incorporating the new stuff would not come immediately.
My hand problem was because I was using my arm/ hand strength to press down notes. A doctor told me just to quit.

Larry's solution was to have me stand with back corner of the bass at my belly button level, or a little higher, with the nut/ scroll leaning towards my own head. The bass would lean against me and FORWARD at the same time. I would practice, slowly, with bass leaning forward against my left hand fingers WITHOUT my thumb. If I went into thumb position, I would only use the weight of my arm. This experience amounted to learning to play all over again, but I never have had pain again. Please understand that this is not a quick solution, but it is a permanent one. You must get to the point where you are not tensing your left hand, and you are not closing it hard around the string. You are allowing the WEIGHT of the bass to press your notes and you are moving your fingers. If a player sits, he/she would use JUST the weight of the arm to press the notes. Either way, it is about only using the weight of your bass or your entire arm. It is a challenge because we feel out of control not gripping the neck, instead our thumb rests on the neck, not gripping it.

In regard to the right hand, again it is the subtle raising and lower of the entire arm and using the side of the index finger (flipper method), that 1. achieves a big sound and 2. relieves all of the tendons in your right forearm from the strain you get when you just use the forearm and hand. If a player choose to use the two finger trice technique in in conjunction with this, that's cool too, but the whole arm from the shoulder is where the movement should start, not just in the fingers, hands and forearm.

1. Soak your arms in hot as you can stand water and Epsom Salts. 2. Find a teacher who understands this technique I have described and see if you can get started.

This is not about being schooled or not. It is about playing smarter, not harder.

Also, two 3hr gigs a month is like, running a 10 K after sitting on the couch for 3 months. Try to practice 10-15 minutes daily.

I feel your pain. I usually only do one or two, 3 hr gigs a week and it wreaks havoc on my left arm if I don't saty in shape and remember to let the bass lean forward.

Don't give up.

 

[jbasedig]

I am sure this question has been asked, but I'd like to see if anyone shares my same problem.
My band plays a mix of old blues / jazz and bluegrass which amounts to a lot of root fifths mostly on E, and A strings. (or at least that's how I think it sounds best)

We are often booked for 3 or even 4 hours shows. which I never really survive. I usually sit out the last 2 songs. Because my hands fail.

What happens is my middle and index fingers involuntarily curl into my palm. My forearm gets a muscle spasm, and basically I am stopped dead mid song. My band understands and know I am out for the night. I takes up to 10-20 seconds before I can move my fingers.

I can handle jams in general because they are much more laid back. But shows are many songs back to back and I play with more vigor in general.

I have tried upping calcium in-take also drinking lots of water. We play maybe 2 shows a month and maybe if this was my full time thing I could last longer?

Anybody share this experience? have any tips to keep up blue grass upbeat energy for 3-4 hours?

Thanks

In 1995 I was near the point of quitting, I had so much pain in in my left hand. I decided to give on last shot. I moved to Chicago and took lessons with the amazing Invalid Link Removed. Lessons with him were the only reason I stayed at DePaul. Now, what he showed me was not easy, it took a lot of time, but it worked. Plus, if I had a gig.. it was " do whatever it takes to get through the gig" incorporating the new stuff would not come immediately.
My hand problem was because I was using my arm/ hand strength to press down notes. A doctor told me just to quit.

Larry's solution was to have me stand with back corner of the bass at my belly button level, or a little higher, with the nut/ scroll leaning towards my own head. The bass would lean against me and FORWARD at the same time. I would practice, slowly, with bass leaning forward against my left hand fingers WITHOUT my thumb. If I went into thumb position, I would only use the weight of my arm. This experience amounted to learning to play all over again, but I never have had pain again. Please understand that this is not a quick solution, but it is a permanent one. You must get to the point where you are not tensing your left hand, and you are not closing it hard around the string. You are allowing the WEIGHT of the bass to press your notes and you are moving your fingers. If a player sits, he/she would use JUST the weight of the arm to press the notes. Either way, it is about only using the weight of your bass or your entire arm. It is a challenge because we feel out of control not gripping the neck, instead our thumb rests on the neck, not gripping it.

In regard to the right hand, again it is the subtle raising and lower of the entire arm and using the side of the index finger (flipper method), that 1. achieves a big sound and 2. relieves all of the tendons in your right forearm from the strain you get when you just use the forearm and hand. If a player choose to use the two finger trice technique in in conjunction with this, that's cool too, but the whole arm from the shoulder is where the movement should start, not just in the fingers, hands and forearm.

1. Soak your arms in hot as you can stand water and Epsom Salts. 2. Find a teacher who understands this technique I have described and see if you can get started.

This is not about being schooled or not. It is about playing smarter, not harder.

Also, two 3hr gigs a month is like, running a 10 K after sitting on the couch for 3 months. Try to practice 10-15 minutes daily.

I feel your pain. I usually only do one or two, 3 hr gigs a week and it wreaks havoc on my left arm if I don't saty in shape and remember to let the bass lean forward.

Don't give up.