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Swapping tubes in a hybrid amp

Maybe a topic for another thread, but which qualities of tubes do you find most difficult to achieve with a solid state circuit (not counting digital modeling, etc.)?

I'm asking as the veteran (in both bass and hi fi) of tubey-sounding solid state gear and solid state-sounding tube gear.
Mostly the things related to the inherent dynamics properties (ie. specific dynamic linearites) that occur, both in the "linear" as well as non-linear modes. These are also properties that are not very consistent from tube to tube, so it's kind of like chasing a moving target too.
 
Mostly the things related to the inherent dynamics properties (ie. specific dynamic linearites) that occur, both in the "linear" as well as non-linear modes. These are also properties that are not very consistent from tube to tube, so it's kind of like chasing a moving target too.

Interesting. By dynamic linearities, are you talking about deviations from linearity (compression), or something else?
 
Interesting. By dynamic linearities, are you talking about deviations from linearity (compression), or something else?
Yes, there are a variety of dynamic non-linearities that appear like compression, but they go hand in hand with other things. This is the sort of stuff that's easier and more accurately modeled in DSP (yes, horrors of horrors I'm admitting this)... BUT along with the good comes the not so good in that DSP gets so complicated that often times the effort is not worth the results (and cost), plus you have then committed to the DSP approach.

Now an example of this is Jim Bergentino's B AMP, which I think (personal opinion here) is the best implementation to date of this approach. TC Electronics really did do some novel pioneering efforts that should not go unmentioned as well. Both, I'm sure, invested a lot more time and effort in the end than it looked like it would take at the beginning.

This is a great time to be a bass player, so many options, so many choices, so much good gear to pick from!
 
So this will effect the o.d. ?...I was hoping to tame it a bit...I suppose i could just keep the o.d gain way down...
Thanks again for your help...I will definitely try a AT or AU like you said..
Yes, my experience shows that it smooths out the clarity a bit. Makes things more transparent, especially as the amp is driven harder. Some folks might like it more, others maybe not, but I think if that's what you are looking for it's worth the try.
 
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Yes, my experience shows that it smooths out the clarity a bit. Makes things more transparent, especially as the amp is driven harder. Some folks might like it more, others maybe not, but I think if that's what you are looking for it's worth the try.

Oh cool...thanks again for sharing your vast knowledge with us all here..
just one more thing..is there a huge difference between the AT and AU and how much smoothness and clarity one has over the other ??
 
In the table below, Mu is related to the gain. The amp's circuit determines what the gain of a stage will be. Note that the tubes in the 12A?7 family are more or less compatible but there are differences.

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The brand isn't important, it's the combination of specific parameters common to all 12AT's that is responsible for the difference. Brand is way more to the right of the decimal point compared with the class of tube (12AT versus 12AX)

Exactly my thought.
my post was aimed at providing some empirical data to those who are convinced that changing brand or age can yeld night and day results. Not true in my opinion or per my experience. Talk about subleties here.
I get the whole tube type thing completely because of different electrical properties aside gain and i just have wait until I can get my hands on a 12at7 to test it in V1 and maybe V2? Thanks
 
I've experimented with two hybrid amps. On my early Ashdown ABM, the differences were surprisingly dramatic. I settled on an old Sylvania and am super happy with the range available through the SS/Tube blend knob.

On my Baby Blue II, swapping tubes had a negligible effect on tone. Not a problem as that general tone is wonderful.

So, as is consensus, it varies!
 
it's fairly simple 12ax7 tubes vary in price from 8.95 to 24.95 on average
for new production tubes.

take a willlllld guess which ones are better and which ones are worse. over time when you have bought a lot of tubes. usually the quality of the glass and the mica spacers and
the quality of the plates is obvious you don't have to be a tube expert to see it. if you have a 8.95 tube in hand and a 24.95 or 32.95 tube in hand it's pretty obvious.

I'd take a fair guess that the bugera head uses cheapo tubes and yes depending on hours of operation and sometimes straight out of the box cheap tubes are poop tubes.

big factor in frequency response is size of plate and mu of tube. even the best 12ax7 exchanges frequency response for gain.

2 big factors in a poppy vs good tube is microphonics the size of the
plate quality of glass and quality of the mica spacers.

with bass yes the larger plate 12ax7 can yield better frequency response
with risk of microphonics cause of the llarger plate. and the classic tiny tiny plate super cheapo tubes is what gives them all bad names. smaller plates reduce microphonics and feedback. very very common because of the high gain guitar amp industry. they lack frequency response and used in very high gain sound like garbage buzz saws.
anyways in the 90s the Chinese by default made thousands of cheap small plate 12ax7s and yes they were complete garbage and yes they lack bass and midrange magic and after few hours operation become very stale and microphonic.

anyways sorry for long post but 12ax7 in the higher price range from JJ with the larger plates are very good for bass.

likewise if your familiar with the rca low noise classic the 7025 the low noise standard tube for all 60s fender amplifiers or the high quality military tubes that were available. the low noise design was a spiral wound heater and reduced hum and better plate and spacers reduced microphonics. sovtec has a larger plate tube with spiral wound heater and is the mesa boogie factory tube now and is a amazing tube. no not the notorious garbage 8 dollar sovtec tube. the high quality 24 dollar sovtec tube.

yes my experience comes from actually buying a krapload of tubes. and my number one test bed was my mesa boogie dual rectifier head that thing has so much gain it will expose any crap tube. likewise my search for low-end with distortion that head will expose a wimpy sounding tube very quickly it's very much night and day. and after rolling literally hundreds of tubes through that head. like I said the better sounding tubes are absolutely visually obivious and likewise with price and tone was always more clear and deep with larger plate tubes
 
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Some pretty bold and amazingly inaccurate statements about tubes in general and some wild claims in specific.

Where the heck does all of this stuff come from? Certainly not from anything remotely engineering oriented, that's for sure.

THIS, is why the tube marketing folks find the market so ripe for easy pickings. So many inaccurate assumptions/statements that are not backed up with fact.

It's one thing to be a hobbyist, who rolls tubes for fun and games and for bragging rights. It's an entirely different thing to have designed and tested many different tube circuit designs and has worked with many tens of thousands of tubes over decades in the industry. These specifically include ageing tests where I have tubes (including Russian and Chinese) that have over 15,000 hours on them in test circuits that I can periodically measure to see which ageing factors can be normalized by careful design. Then we can go back a generation, as tubes are not something new in my life. My dad designed with tubes all through the 50's and 60's, mostly in military and aerospace applications. You don't think that I pick his experienced brain for whatever insights he might be able to contribute? Many of the problems we see with tubes today are not new problems but a continuation of the challenges faced since the beginning of electronics. Wild variations in parameters make comparisons between 2 tubes more about comparisons of a spread of variables than any generality could hope to disclose.

Regarding plate length, one major reason for increasing plate length is to decrease plate current density which can improve linearity in high plate voltage circuits that use a combination of lower value plate resistors and lower load impedance. The problem with this is that capacitance between all of the elements increases, leakage increases, and because the grid and cathode must also be longer the microphonics issue is greater even in a well constructed tube. The Mesa current production 12AX7 tube is not a long plate tube because they just do not sound as good (in the circuits/applications they are used in), nor do they hold up as well.

Regarding less expensive and more expensive tubes, I think you would be shocked to know how many expensive tubes did not start out as expensive tubes but are nothing more than exquisitely marketed versions of the better quality every day tubes. Sometimes they will screen them for a set of parameters that support the marketing, sometimes they screen discards (or returns) to find unusual outliers of one parameter or another (I once had to screen returns because I needed a specifically "defective" tube for a very unusual and unique circuit, this parameter made the tube unusable for other applications so in this case it worked in my favor, and this specific product alone probably consumed 10k tubes, with a predicted lifespan (because of the way it was used) of well over 20k hours.

For those of you who want to believe, by all means enjoy what you are doing. Nobody is going to lose an eye over this. Those of you who are maybe a little more skeptical about tubes, good for you. Use your ears and some common sense to prove to yourself that you are indeed getting what you think you are paying for and not getting hustled. I don't have a dog in the resale tube race, but I get enough PM's and e-mails with serious questions about tubes and wild claims that I feel it's good to get some of this stuff out in the open for the sake of honesty.
 
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So for fun I pulled a bin of sample tubes just to see if any of the generalizations Bogey made were true. Now this is a small sample of maybe a hundred tubes, so take that for what it's worth.

All of the Chinese tubes I have (4 different varieties) all have plate lengths longer than Sovtek 12AX7WB and equal in length to the Russian Sovtek 12AX7EH. I also have some original Chinese 12AX7A tubes from the 1980's that are long plate (same as 12AX7LPS)

I have some NOS JAN (Phillips ECG USA) 12AX7WA that are long plate, I have some ECC83's from Yugoslavia that are long plate, I have a bag of assorted USA 12AX7's that are all medium length plates, I have a bag of Sovtek 7025's that are all short plate, very low noise in testing, and I have a bag of Sovtek 12AX7LPS that failed to operate correctly in a particular circuit because the current density was too low, though the shorter plate tubes worked correctly. Some of the very best tubes ended up being Chinese, but that said, Russia makes some outstanding tubes as well and tend to be (not an absolute) more consistent (either due to manufacturing or screening, I can't say with the certainty others might suggest).

It's inaccurate to assign absolutes to plate length, all countries made long plates (yes, even the Chinese), some were very good, some were not very good, some didn't even work in particular circuits. All countries made medium and short plate tubes as well. I keep a pretty good assortment of old stock tubes around so that I can measure circuit performance with a wide variety of tubes to insure that the circuit is likely to give good results no matter where in the world the tube is sourced or the player is located.

Just opened a box of new Ei Yugoslavian 12AX7's that are silver long plate's, I have no idea what these are, but they look exactly the same as the Chinese gray long plates, right down to the envelope. Pins are different though.
 
Interesting.
I have an older Ashdown ABM with the tube pre.
I emailed them regarding swapping out the tube, and when and for what etc.
They replied that I shouldn't ever need to do it.

Well, the tube affects the drive only. The amp is working fine without any tube plugged into the socket, anyway.
Although it is a GREAT sounding amp!
 
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Regarding less expensive and more expensive tubes, I think you would be shocked to know how many expensive tubes did not start out as expensive tubes but are nothing more than exquisitely marketed versions of the better quality every day tubes.

Not surprisingly this seems especially true with NOS tubes. The RCA tubes I like the most were probably a pretty cheap commodity in the 60s. When I bought mine 10 years ago they were around $20 or $30 each—not nuthin, but a bargain compared with a lot of the more sought-after tubes. Today, they cost over $80 each, which suggests they've somehow gotten themselves a reputation. Probably some seller with influence online has a big mouth. Needless to say, if I wear out the ones in my stereo preamp, they'll be replaced with something else.
 
Yes, my experience shows that it smooths out the clarity a bit. Makes things more transparent, especially as the amp is driven harder. Some folks might like it more, others maybe not, but I think if that's what you are looking for it's worth the try.

@agedhorse I bought a 12at7 and was wondering if you could tell me which tube is v3
 

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That amp can use a good cleaning. That gunk can affect the performance of the amp. It prohibits heat dissipation and can be conductive.

Cleaning has to be done properly, preferably with a vacuum, do not blow air into the chassis with compressed air unless you know how to do it properly.


cc: @rekesbass
 
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