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SWR - Eden - Thunderfunk - 2 ohm operation

duff2

Guest
Dec 16, 2007
528
457
Chef's thread about operation of the TFB-550 below 4 ohms made me wonder why it's OK to run SWR amps at 2 ohms but not OK to run the Eden (original WT series) or Thunderfunk amps in this way.

According to Dave Funk, the Eden and Thunderfunk's use the same Russ Allee designed power amp. The SWR, Eden and Thunderfunk amps all owe their origins to the A.M.P. BH-420, so does this mean that Steve Rabe used a different power section in the SWR amps? If this is true, does anyone know what's special about the SWR (relative to Eden/Thunderfunk) that allows for 2 ohm operation?

Cheers,
Duff2
 
The original SWR amps (SM400, etc.), the original Eden WT series, nor the AMP or original Thunderfunk were rated safe at 2ohms.

The more recent SWR amps (SM500, etc.), the more recent Eden WT series, and the current Thunderfunk750 are all rated safe at 2ohms.

I don't see anything unusual here. I assume as more and more customers asked for 2ohm operation, these companies modified the cooling systems and beefed up the components to allow this level of operation.
 
The owner's manual for the first generation of SWR SM-400 amps stated that 2 ohm operation is acceptable.

"...the internal power amplifiers of the SM-400 will deliver 300 watts @ 2 ohms, 240 Watts @ 4 ohms and 140 Watts into 8 ohms."


Taken from:

Invalid Link Removed

Cheers,
Duff2
 
The owner's manual for the first generation of SWR SM-400 amps states that 2 ohm operation is acceptable.

"...the internal power amplifiers of the SM-400 will deliver 300 watts @ 2 ohms, 240 Watts @ 4 ohms and 140 Watts into 8 ohms."


Taken from:

Invalid Link Removed

Cheers,
Duff2

Interesting. I had one of the first ones, and seem to remember that it was not safe bridged at less than 8ohms.

The funny thing is, the SWR stuff runs so hot bridged at 8ohms, that I still refuse to believe they are really safe at 4 (resulting in each side running at 2ohms):D

Who knows. I know that David Nordschow of Eden always stated that he did not like the increased distortion of amps running at 2ohms, and therefore had no interest in designing his amps around that requirement.

Also, Dave Funk put up a few very nice posts a while back indicating that, at least with the design of his amp, there is a price to pay when designing an amp to run optimally at 2ohms when running at 8ohms (which is still probably more common than those regularly running at 2ohms). So, he originally targeted a minimum 4ohm operation as his 'optimal performance' target, resulting in decent 8ohm operation also. I assume his new 750 has so much power that the 8ohm power level is still good even with his 2ohm safe operating addition.

The tech reasons are way over my head, so I'll bow out of the thread.
 
I think I saw Dave Funk's post, and IIRC he said "similar" not "same" design.

I had a lot of early SWR stuff, and still have some. The Super Redhead was approved for 2 ohms, but I'd never run it that way: it got pretty hot by itself, and more so at 2.67.
The old Bass 350 I have: same thing. Course, without the fan, it gets really hot at 4 ohms.
I did run both of those at 2.67 tho; when I needed to.

They are supposed get warm/hot...the chassis is a heat sink.

I can't speak to the earlier Eden stuff. I've not run any eden stuff at 2 ohms; but at least in theory, bridging the wt800B to 4 ohms is the same thing.

Upgrades in cooling are one diff, and I think generally beefier and higher spec'd components are another.

In that same post Dave put up earlier, I also recall him saying something like "it's not the heat that kills some components, but big and repeated swings in tempurature.
 
Dave Funk's words, not mine:

"Dave Nordschow lives 1-mile from me. Small world. Since he was fired from Eden we've been visiting. Since he built the same Russ Allee designed power amp that I do, and has more experience with it, he helped me understand it better. The amp has output current reduction and it can be adjusted. The problem is to find a nice balance of reliability, power, and distortion. I don't think you'd like an amp that said it could handle 2-ohms, but then tended to blow up."

I got the impression from the same post (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=461363), that it was the current handling capacity of the components in the power section and not the effect of heat that limits use of the amp to a 4 ohm load.

So does that mean that the SWR power section is more robust, or does Dave Funk and Dave Nordschow's concerns have more to do with sound in the context of THD as mentioned by Kjung?

Cheers,
Duff2
 
So does that mean that the SWR power section is more robust, or does Dave Funk and Dave Nordschow's concerns have more to do with sound in the context of THD as mentioned by Kjung

Though I cannot verify for certain; knowing Dave and seeing what he's written and knowing his design philosophy (and using his products)...I'd be willing to wager his concern is tone first and foremost.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by duff2 View Post
The owner's manual for the first generation of SWR SM-400 amps states that 2 ohm operation is acceptable.

"...the internal power amplifiers of the SM-400 will deliver 300 watts @ 2 ohms, 240 Watts @ 4 ohms and 140 Watts into 8 ohms."


Taken from:

Invalid Link Removed

Cheers,
Duff2

Interesting. I had one of the first ones, and seem to remember that it was not safe bridged at less than 8ohms.

The 2 ohm operation is per channel, not bridged. But they can, and do, run at 4 ohms bridged. I've done it many times with my old SM-400 (non-"S" version).
Yeah, it does get damn hot, just as they say it will. I still ran a fan behind it to help dissipate the heat. ;)
 
The 2 ohm operation is per channel, not bridged. But they can, and do, run at 4 ohms bridged. I've done it many times with my old SM-400 (non-"S" version).
Yeah, it does get damn hot, just as they say it will. I still ran a fan behind it to help dissipate the heat. ;)

+1 They recommended running at 8ohms in bridged mode for optimal operation but it will do a hot 4ohms. At 2ohms they recommended removing all flammable liquids and combustibles from the area.
 
God Bless.......... "THE GODFATHER OF ELECTRIC BASS AMPLIFICATION" ..............

MR. RUSS ALLEE

Also, God Bless Russ for designing the NEW "acoustic" USA Line of Amps. WOW!!!!!!
 
The problem is to find a nice balance of reliability, power, and distortion.

I got the impression from the same post (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=461363), that it was the current handling capacity of the components in the power section and not the effect of heat that limits use of the amp to a 4 ohm load.

So does that mean that the SWR power section is more robust, or does Dave Funk and Dave Nordschow's concerns have more to do with sound in the context of THD as mentioned by Kjung?

Cheers,
Duff2

First, you need to listen to guys that know what they're talking about. There's been so much positive response to Thunderfunk amps (and not just the bass stuff) that there's many shills on TB that purposely plant posts casting doubt about my products or making strange comments about how they sound, or work, yet they don't own one, never heard one, and are only guessing at the technical stuff.

This 2-ohms "heavy duty" arguement keeps coming up, and I'll have to post a FAQs to do a long explanation, but the whole idea that 2-ohm operation is a matter of making the amp "better" is pure B.S. I've explained this before, so I'll make it short.

OPERATING VOLTAGE = MAXIMUM POWER OUTPUT
CURENT CAPACITY = LOAD
WATTS = Volts x Current (Amps)
TRANSFORMER RATED IN VA, NOT Watts!!!! (It has to do with phase.)

1. The design starts with a maximum power decision. That equals the operating volts, as the amp must throw volts to push a current through a load (speaker).

2. The load determines how much current the amp must deliver.

A 2-ohm load gets full current at a lower voltage, so the design parameter at #1 gets lowered. Now it has poor performance at 4 and 8-ohms. Remember, there's only ONE POINT where the amp is balanced between load, current, and power.

3. The transformer is only so big.

End of design story.

There is NO SUCH THING as an amp that operates just as well at 2-ohms as it does at 4-ohms, or 8-ohms. The exception is digital amps, and tube amps which have an output transformer that has 2-4-8 and 16-ohms taps. Try running you Fender Deluxe at 2-ohms and tell me how good it sounds.

Here's an analogy. You have a car that has a three-speed transmission. It's designed to run 60 mph at 4,000 rpm in third gear. You ask me if you can run the car at 60 mph in FIRST gear. Sure, YOU can, but I wouldn't. How long do you want the car to last? "Why doesn't it run at 60 mph in ANY of the three gears? Maybe it needs to be Heavy Duty?" If you need to run at 2-ohms, you have the wrong cabinets. You reject that answer because you don't want to buy the right cabs. That's not my fault. This other brand says they can run all day long in first gear at 60 mph and YOU BELIEVE THEM! hahahahahaha I tell you the truth and get grief for it.

So, I designed the TFB750-A to peak at 4-ohms and still handle a 2-ohm load. It does it fine. But you don't want to hear that if I did it "right" it would do 750-watts at 2-ohms, 400-watts at 4-ohms, and 200-watts at 8-ohms. Now all the guys with 8-ohm cabs are mad that THEY bought the wrong cabs. This whole argument is a loser. It has NOTHING to do with an "additional" capability. We designed it for maximum power at 4-ohms, and designed it with a heavy duty output section to survive being "abused" by a 2-ohm load. If you're running a 2-ohm load, don't worry about it, but if you want that best balance of power, tone, and reliability, I'd run it at 4-ohms. Sorry, I can't lie to you and tell you the laws of physics have been suspended so you can run around town in first gear and get the same mpg.
 
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First, you need to listen to guys that know what they're talking about. There's been so much positive response to Thunderfunk amps (and not just the bass stuff) that there's many shills on TB that purposely plant posts casting doubt about my products or making strange comments about how they sound, or work, yet they don't own one, never heard one, and are only guessing at the technical stuff.

This 2-ohms "heavy duty" arguement keeps coming up, and I'll have to post a FAQs to do a long explanation, but the whole idea that 2-ohm operation is a matter of making the amp "better" is pure B.S. I've explained this before, so I'll make it short.

OPERATING VOLTAGE = MAXIMUM POWER OUTPUT
CURENT CAPACITY = LOAD
WATTS = Volts x Current (Amps)
TRANSFORMER RATED IN VA, NOT Watts!!!! (It has to do with phase.)

1. The design starts with a maximum power decision. That equals the operating volts, as the amp must throw volts to push a current through a load (speaker).

2. The load determines how much current the amp must deliver.

A 2-ohm load gets full current at a lower voltage, so the design parameter at #1 gets lowered. Now it has poor performance at 4 and 8-ohms. Remember, there's only ONE POINT where the amp is balanced between load, current, and power.

3. The transformer is only so big.

End of design story.

There is NO SUCH THING as an amp that operates just as well at 2-ohms as it does at 4-ohms, or 8-ohms. The exception is digital amps, and tube amps which have an output transformer that has 2-4-8 and 16-ohms taps. Try running you Fender Deluxe at 2-ohms and tell me how good it sounds.

Here's an analogy. You have a car that has a three-speed transmission. It's designed to run 60 mph at 4,000 rpm in third gear. You ask me if you can run the car at 60 mph in FIRST gear. Sure, YOU can, but I wouldn't. How long do you want the car to last? "Why doesn't it run at 60 mph in ANY of the three gears? Maybe it needs to be Heavy Duty?" If you need to run at 2-ohms, you have the wrong cabinets. You reject that answer because you don't want to buy the right cabs. That's not my fault. This other brand says they can run all day long in first gear at 60 mph and YOU BELIEVE THEM! hahahahahaha I tell you the truth and get grief for it.

So, I designed the TFB750-A to peak at 4-ohms and still handle a 2-ohm load. It does it fine. But you don't want to hear that if I did it "right" it would do 750-watts at 2-ohms, 400-watts at 4-ohms, and 200-watts at 8-ohms. Now all the guys with 8-ohm cabs are mad that THEY bought the wrong cabs. This whole argument is a loser. It has NOTHING to do with an "additional" capability. We designed it for maximum power at 4-ohms, and designed it with a heavy duty output section to survive being "abused" by a 2-ohm load. If you're running a 2-ohm load, don't worry about it, but if you want that best balance of power, tone, and reliability, I'd run it at 4-ohms. Sorry, I can't lie to you and tell you the laws of physics have been suspended so you can run around town in first gear and get the same mpg.

Man, this is the kind of stuff that makes me love this forum. Thanks for posting Dave! As a non-techie musician, I appreciate these kind of no B.S. informative posts. I'm going to try to save up my pennies for a Thunderfunk X-mas present.:hyper:
 
First, you need to listen to guys that know what they're talking about. There's been so much positive response to Thunderfunk amps (and not just the bass stuff) that there's many shills on TB that purposely plant posts casting doubt about my products or making strange comments about how they sound, or work, yet they don't own one, never heard one, and are only guessing at the technical stuff.

This 2-ohms "heavy duty" arguement keeps coming up, and I'll have to post a FAQs to do a long explanation, but the whole idea that 2-ohm operation is a matter of making the amp "better" is pure B.S. I've explained this before, so I'll make it short.

OPERATING VOLTAGE = MAXIMUM POWER OUTPUT
CURENT CAPACITY = LOAD
WATTS = Volts x Current (Amps)
TRANSFORMER RATED IN VA, NOT Watts!!!! (It has to do with phase.)

1. The design starts with a maximum power decision. That equals the operating volts, as the amp must throw volts to push a current through a load (speaker).

2. The load determines how much current the amp must deliver.

A 2-ohm load gets full current at a lower voltage, so the design parameter at #1 gets lowered. Now it has poor performance at 4 and 8-ohms. Remember, there's only ONE POINT where the amp is balanced between load, current, and power.

3. The transformer is only so big.

End of design story.

There is NO SUCH THING as an amp that operates just as well at 2-ohms as it does at 4-ohms, or 8-ohms. The exception is digital amps, and tube amps which have an output transformer that has 2-4-8 and 16-ohms taps. Try running you Fender Deluxe at 2-ohms and tell me how good it sounds.

Here's an analogy. You have a car that has a three-speed transmission. It's designed to run 60 mph at 4,000 rpm in third gear. You ask me if you can run the car at 60 mph in FIRST gear. Sure, YOU can, but I wouldn't. How long do you want the car to last? "Why doesn't it run at 60 mph in ANY of the three gears? Maybe it needs to be Heavy Duty?" If you need to run at 2-ohms, you have the wrong cabinets. You reject that answer because you don't want to buy the right cabs. That's not my fault. This other brand says they can run all day long in first gear at 60 mph and YOU BELIEVE THEM! hahahahahaha I tell you the truth and get grief for it.

So, I designed the TFB750-A to peak at 4-ohms and still handle a 2-ohm load. It does it fine. But you don't want to hear that if I did it "right" it would do 750-watts at 2-ohms, 400-watts at 4-ohms, and 200-watts at 8-ohms. Now all the guys with 8-ohm cabs are mad that THEY bought the wrong cabs. This whole argument is a loser. It has NOTHING to do with an "additional" capability. We designed it for maximum power at 4-ohms, and designed it with a heavy duty output section to survive being "abused" by a 2-ohm load. If you're running a 2-ohm load, don't worry about it, but if you want that best balance of power, tone, and reliability, I'd run it at 4-ohms. Sorry, I can't lie to you and tell you the laws of physics have been suspended so you can run around town in first gear and get the same mpg.


Thanks Dave for a great explanation. Is there any way to determine what the best operating load for an amp is? Also for one with stereo outputs? Or do we need to ask the manufacturer and risk a BS answer out of them? Your excused from that last statement, of course.
 
...there's many shills on TB that purposely plant posts casting doubt about my products or making strange comments about how they sound, or work, yet they don't own one, never heard one, and are only guessing at the technical stuff.

Dave,

It was never my intention to cast any doubt on your product. I asked this question simply to satisfy my own curiosity. I own a Thunderfunk TFB420 and I honestly believe it's one of the best amp designs out there, period.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to shed some extra light on this matter. Your dedication, like your amp, is second to none.

Cheers,
Duff2