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T/S parameters for vintage CTS 8x10 drivers?

#81
Thanks for the responses about the upper range. I get the sense that up to a 3dB swing isn't too noticeable to most, maybe when A/B'ing it is but not without that relief (this also applies to the comment above). I'm trying to find that sweet spot for treble extension/voicing for me and I think the SVT's an important data point.

Kringle you call the peaks breakup modes? I thought breakup modes referred to the harmonic distortion caused by exceeding xmax, and not something that would show up on an SPL plot (or similar AES-type data sheet). I'm envisioning drum head-like modes. Just trying to learn the lingo here. :)
 
#82
I don't really understand the math of breakup modes but, I believe that it is a distortion and the net effect is one where the sound is less clean. I pretty know much know just enough to keep me asking "why" and to make some guestimates about what speakers to use for what designs. Guys like billfitzmaurice and Dukelejune are the real brains.
 
#83
I've never found a single review or record of anyone (aside from the weber shop themselves) using a weber 10" bass driver. So, I should be the first one to do an on-line review. I flat out told the weber guys that if they posted t/s parameters that they would sell alot more bass speakers. Im looking forward to getting them but know 100% that I'll have an 8x10 built before I get the specs. I know that they were designed to go into a sealed 8x10 and what the internal volume is supposed to be so, it's not a big leap of faith to use the drivers. But, if someone was building a different cab they would absolutely need the specs. When/if I ever get them, they will be shared here.
 
#84
I just got done playing a pair of the weber 10's, each in there own sealed cab, roughly a cubic foot each, one layer of mattress topper lining. I am absolutely giddy right now. These things sound like what I have been hearing in my head for years but couldn't get.

So, here's what you want to know, "do they sound like the cts drivers?" Yes. Keep in mind that the cts is 40years old and the webers are still sticky from the factory. They have the same low end profile, the mids and highs are actually more aggressive and bold on the webers, probably because of the age mostly but, the webers may actually be fuller in the middle mids, where the CTS definitely have a scoop. I definitely will not being using a guitar driver in my 8x10 for top end. Nothing sounds as sweet up top as these webers. Nothing. It sounds like a guitar driver got on roids and decided to be a bass speaker. No need for a tweet or mid with these at all. They have such a nice growl. When I get back home from work, Im loading 6 of them in my bergantino for this weekends gigs.

I can't imagine the fliptops neo's sounding any better than these although judging my the specs, they should be very similar. Unless the neo's sound even better I'll probably be keeping the webers and selling the 4 neo's. So, these really are a cts clone, but maybe better. I AM SO DAMN HAPPY. If feels like Im getting to the end of a long tiring, expensive journey. I can't wait to hear my vintage svt cranking through an 8x10 loaded with these puppies. :):):):)
 
#88
Here they are in the berg. Looks so damn sexy. A 6x10 of these would be enough but, Im going for the full 8x10. Because I can.
 

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#89
Cool, looking forward to your impressions - if you liked the vibe of a pair, then 6 or 8 should be pretty amazing. Do you remember the differences between the light and heavy magnet versions? I hear ya on Weber and the T/S - I started pinging them about a year ago and gave up after a few months of "oh, we're starting right now...." hope they get their act together - I told the same thing as you did.
 
#90
I just back from my folks house in the country where I bring all my cabs for torture, outdoors, loud. I played for about 1.5 hours and slowly turned the volume and low end up as the speakers loosened. And loosen they did. The sound got more round and the low end is starting to come in nicely. There's nothing I would change about these drivers. And, if you've been following some of my others threads, you know that is saying something. Truthfully, a small sealed 6x10 made with these would be plenty for almost anyone, including myself. I had my shuttlemax 9.2 constantly with the limiter blinking on for the last half our and the drivers took it just fine. I ran the 3 right side drivers fullrange as well as the bottom left driver. The two top left were lowpass with my 8ohm, 500hz lowpass board so, it probably made the 16ohm load lowpass at 250hz but, it gave me all the information I needed to know that the new cab will rock. There will be a switch to go from half lowpass to an all fullrange cab like the vintage origional. I probably be selling the berg soon as well as my brand new LDS 2x15 since I've found what I want. I'll be selling the rest of my raw drivers as well. I found what I've been looking for. Another great thing about these drivers is that you can get them in different impedances so, guys can get that vintage sounding 4ohm 4x10 for their svt that they've been asking for, or even a 4ohm 2x10.

Still no word from fliptops about the four neo's I ordered but, I almost dont' care now. They would have to do something really special for me to go with them. Even if they sound just as good, which Im betting they will based on the specs, I'd sell them just for the sake of only having one type of driver sitting around my basement, for spares or smaller versions of my 8x10.

Building an 8x10 with these will get the drivers up even higher to improve sound and give me that much more sensativity.
Don is starting it tomorow. Should be 22" wide, 44 tall, 16 deep, probably 100lbs or less.
 
#91
JGR, I remember the heavier version sounding great as well. Maybe not quite as much top end as the 10fl but, still plenty. The 10fh had more low end. The mids where about the same, the 10fh may actually have had thicker growlier mids. Both really good sounding drivers. The 10fh is pretty heavy though.
 
#92
Yeah, if you can stand the extra 15-20 lbs and want the .5 alignment, it might be cool to use the heavy mag version for the low pass side.
 
#94
That's cool. A different take on this might be a pair of 8 ohm 410's, the first with 4 FL (.5 aligned) and the other with 2 FH low passed and 2 FL full range. This would provide a modular 810 with a way to compare the FL/FH lows and mids. Does the sound of those Weber 10FL's in the NV610 move it towards the NV412 at all; slightly fuller lows and more extented highs? Also, what dimensions would you suggest for a small sealed 6x10 with these? thx
 
#95
Interesting. Very interesting. I do think breaking in for 40 years has something to do with it, though. As speakers get older, they do continue breaking in, gaining low end and losing high end. I wonder how they'd compare against my CTS's that were all reconed 4 years ago. Honestly, though, I'm not all that concerned about it, but glad you're digging the Webers.
 
#96
They definitely are brighter than the bergs and maybe flatter in the mids where the bergs "maybe" have more going on in the 800hz to 2k. About the same in the low end. I'll have to wait until they break in a bit more to give a fair comparison there. The big difference for me is in the top end where you can really boost the treble and not have it sound bad. When I boost the treble with the berg, it sounds good but, that accentuated 2khz area gets a bit ganky and clacky.

The NV412 has more low end. The highs don't extend quite as high. The smaller voice coil really effects the sweetness of the top end. However weber did it, they made a 4.5 ferrite driver that puts out the volume of a heavier, larger voice coiled driver with the sweetness of a less robust driver.

Now, lets see how the fliptops neo compares.
 
#97
Im going to be calling ralf patterson today to have him build me a lowpass filter. 500hz, 8ohm, 2nd order. Thats what I've been using and it really works for me but was wondering if this is optimum for my .5 alignment. Keep in mind that I still want my mids burly but, want improved dispersion. I think 500hz is the happy medium but just want opinions.

The two webers that aren't loaded in the berg will be put in two sealed 1x10's that I can play my old svt through to break them in unil the new cab arrives.

For this into 6x10's, you could use four 8ohms and two 16 ohm webers to get a total 4ohm load and each driver would see the same amount of power. Pretty darn handy. I can't to hear my b-peg pedal through these webers tonight!
 
#98
Talked to Ralf today. He said that the eminence crossover I've been using will work just fine. Cool.

One thing some of you may want to know is that I can hear no difference in sound when wiring these drivers in series or parallel. Thats a good thing.

For a long time I've been using the same bass, strings, head, etc. because I found what I wanted and don't feel interested in looking anywhere else. Thats a great feeling and now I've found the speakers that will allow me to do this with my cabs. I love to show up to a gig and not have to think about my gear. I love to show up at a gig and be excited to turn my amp on because I know that it will sound the way I want. Thats exciting and makes you want to play better/more. Gear does make a difference.
 
#99
Yep, gear makes the difference that way for me as well. That's about it, though...honestly, I sound about the same in any gear I've ever used, but gear that I like does keep my mind off of it and on important things, like doing a show.
 
#100
kringle77 said:
They definitely are brighter than the bergs and maybe flatter in the mids where the bergs "maybe" have more going on in the 800hz to 2k. About the same in the low end. I'll have to wait until they break in a bit more to give a fair comparison there. The big difference for me is in the top end where you can really boost the treble and not have it sound bad. When I boost the treble with the berg, it sounds good but, that accentuated 2khz area gets a bit ganky and clacky.

The NV412 has more low end. The highs don't extend quite as high. The smaller voice coil really effects the sweetness of the top end. However weber did it, they made a 4.5 ferrite driver that puts out the volume of a heavier, larger voice coiled driver with the sweetness of a less robust driver.

Now, lets see how the fliptops neo compares.
Click to expand...

I looked at the Fliptops neo versus the Fane 10-125 in WinISD and Eminence Designer. Excursion limited power was similar for the two drivers but I was surprised to find that even though the Fanes were 10 Hz lower at -3dB, the bass response was identical up to about 100 Hz when both drivers were driven at that power level. The Fliptops neo must be slightly more efficient for this to happen. By 120 Hz, the Fliptops was up by 1 dB and at 200 Hz by 2 dB. If the Weber has less scoop in the 500 - 800 Hz range I think that would be a good thing since the low pass filter attenuates that on one side already.

The availability of 32 ohm Weber 10F drivers is good for a 610 cab. It simplifies the wiring and low pass filter. Here is a drawing of what a sealed 610 with switchable 500 Hz 2nd order low pass on one side might look like. The ERSE crossover calculator showed that a 500W 4.70mH coil and a 250V 22.0uF capacitor could provide that 2nd order low pass at 10.6 ohms. Another cool idea mentionned earlier is that if you want a little beefier low end and are alright with the added weight you can swap out one or more 10FL with 10FH woofers since the impedance and power handling are the same.
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